Water Injection - THE FACTS!
09-22-2003, 08:06 AM
#151
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,448
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
here is an idea. rig up a peltier system. http://www.melcor.com/teccover.htm sells them.
basically one side gets extreemly cold, and one gets extreemly hot. so the cold side could just basically cool the water/ charged air for you.
also, i had an idea to rig up a peltier box. basically, its a charge pipe, that has be made into a box with smoothed and tapered, rounded ends. all 4 sides that are flat, i will stick peltiers on the outside. and the inside i will stick heat sinks on the inside. obviously, the peltiers cool the air soo fast, that the air, and any serface that touches it , gets frosted almost instantly.( i had my pc compleetly prosted in about 5 secconds).
also, the frost sublimes rather quick, and that sublimed condensated water has a really good cooling effect. ( basically ( when ice sits in your freezer, it still evaporates, this is called sublimination. but the evaporated water is really cold)).
so yeah. i hope i wasnt too vague. o yeah, the hot side of the peltier just gets only 250+ degrees celcius. if the hot side gets that hot, just immagine how cold the cold side gets
lol 
just a thaught. ofcourse, you need power supplies, and a shitload of other junk.
basically one side gets extreemly cold, and one gets extreemly hot. so the cold side could just basically cool the water/ charged air for you.
also, i had an idea to rig up a peltier box. basically, its a charge pipe, that has be made into a box with smoothed and tapered, rounded ends. all 4 sides that are flat, i will stick peltiers on the outside. and the inside i will stick heat sinks on the inside. obviously, the peltiers cool the air soo fast, that the air, and any serface that touches it , gets frosted almost instantly.( i had my pc compleetly prosted in about 5 secconds).
also, the frost sublimes rather quick, and that sublimed condensated water has a really good cooling effect. ( basically ( when ice sits in your freezer, it still evaporates, this is called sublimination. but the evaporated water is really cold)).
so yeah. i hope i wasnt too vague. o yeah, the hot side of the peltier just gets only 250+ degrees celcius. if the hot side gets that hot, just immagine how cold the cold side gets
lol just a thaught. ofcourse, you need power supplies, and a shitload of other junk.
10-02-2003, 11:31 PM
#152
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 188
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
peltier system idea is pretty interesting. but just how much complication would you want to add? with WI, at least you can use a fluid level switch to shut off the high boost side of a 2 stage boost controller to drop boost levels down to safe operating levels in case the water runs out.
that chacko's fuel pump hasn't rusted yet is very promising. basically, the most IDEAL setup would be to use an additional injector driver to run and extra fuel injector or two (adding up to 20-25% of total fuel delivery) and use a fuel pump to pressurize it. this would be not only inexpensive, but it would give a 3-D WI MAP as well, being based on the injection of fuel.
the issue is rust. i've read in several places that Lucas injectors can handle water without rusting. trouble is finding some for cheap with the right flow rates..
another possibility would be to make the water non-corrosive. iv'e been reading about teh reduction of water and its effects on the amount of active oxygen (source of rust) and other contaminants in the remaining water. basically, there are 3 electrodes. 2 on the sides, and one on the bottom of a container. high frequency, low current pulses are shot back adn forth through the water which charge the particles. free hydrogen molecules are attracted to the free (active oxygen) molecules, picking them out of the mix. essentially, what is left is water with little or no active oxygen, and some extra hydrogen, which can actually eat away the corrosion that does form. this would allow the use of jsut any ol fuel injector you have lying about..
again though, added complication.
that chacko's fuel pump hasn't rusted yet is very promising. basically, the most IDEAL setup would be to use an additional injector driver to run and extra fuel injector or two (adding up to 20-25% of total fuel delivery) and use a fuel pump to pressurize it. this would be not only inexpensive, but it would give a 3-D WI MAP as well, being based on the injection of fuel.
the issue is rust. i've read in several places that Lucas injectors can handle water without rusting. trouble is finding some for cheap with the right flow rates..
another possibility would be to make the water non-corrosive. iv'e been reading about teh reduction of water and its effects on the amount of active oxygen (source of rust) and other contaminants in the remaining water. basically, there are 3 electrodes. 2 on the sides, and one on the bottom of a container. high frequency, low current pulses are shot back adn forth through the water which charge the particles. free hydrogen molecules are attracted to the free (active oxygen) molecules, picking them out of the mix. essentially, what is left is water with little or no active oxygen, and some extra hydrogen, which can actually eat away the corrosion that does form. this would allow the use of jsut any ol fuel injector you have lying about..
again though, added complication.
10-13-2003, 11:07 PM
#154
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,082
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
the fuel cell idea is pretty good, but it might prove cheaper to just get another kind of container if it's for water. you should use the fuel cell if it's for fuel though.
check out these *****: http://www.dynamicracing.com/custome...&cat=34&page=1
that kit is being sold by a shop that is an hour from me. propane injection is cool because it's cold and it's completely burnable, kinda like running 100% alcohol.
when you get the alcohol for the water injection would you just use regular rubbing alcohol or would you have to buy everclear?
check out these *****: http://www.dynamicracing.com/custome...&cat=34&page=1
that kit is being sold by a shop that is an hour from me. propane injection is cool because it's cold and it's completely burnable, kinda like running 100% alcohol.
when you get the alcohol for the water injection would you just use regular rubbing alcohol or would you have to buy everclear?
10-14-2003, 02:15 AM
#155
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 188
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
it's not really that cold. the phase change takes place in the tank, not in the lines. the vapor in the lines is likely not too far off of ambient.
the other issue with LPG injection is that it's not like nitrous as far as its intercooling effect goes. you would have to add a large proportion of LPG to the incoming charge to see nitrous-type intercooling effects. but, since nitrous is an oxidiser and LPG is a fuel, you have a problem. suddenly, while the nitrous requires adding fuel to prevent lean mixtures, the LPG would require leaning the mixture to prevent an overly rich mixture. propane will also mix more thoroughly with the incoming air. if the mixture is overly rich, some of the fuel will not burn. since the propane/air mixture is better than the gas/air mix, it's more likely that the gas will not burn.
in order to get the kind of benefits they're talking about- both octane and intercooling wise- a large proportion of the fuel would have to be propane (octane-wise about 34%). so you have to lean the fuel mixture out to balance it.. then what happens when the tank runs out and you're at 15psi?
it's an intersting concept, one that i know plenty of people have used with great results.. it's just not as easy as squirting x amount of propane in the charge pipes like WI.
the other issue with LPG injection is that it's not like nitrous as far as its intercooling effect goes. you would have to add a large proportion of LPG to the incoming charge to see nitrous-type intercooling effects. but, since nitrous is an oxidiser and LPG is a fuel, you have a problem. suddenly, while the nitrous requires adding fuel to prevent lean mixtures, the LPG would require leaning the mixture to prevent an overly rich mixture. propane will also mix more thoroughly with the incoming air. if the mixture is overly rich, some of the fuel will not burn. since the propane/air mixture is better than the gas/air mix, it's more likely that the gas will not burn.
in order to get the kind of benefits they're talking about- both octane and intercooling wise- a large proportion of the fuel would have to be propane (octane-wise about 34%). so you have to lean the fuel mixture out to balance it.. then what happens when the tank runs out and you're at 15psi?
it's an intersting concept, one that i know plenty of people have used with great results.. it's just not as easy as squirting x amount of propane in the charge pipes like WI.
10-17-2003, 08:27 AM
#157
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 8
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
all you would need is a little pressure gauge like you would put on a propane tank for a grill or something... it would just screw right into the tank and then you dont have to worry about pressure levels.. actually never mind.. the dynamic racing kit includes a pressure guage.. but the only thing im worried about, is how damn heavy propane tanks are when they are filled!! oh and did anyone see the trucks! episode when they put the bulldog propane kit on the turbodiesel pickup? i thought that was ------ awesome but i never realized you could do it on a gas car.. anyway, good ----...
10-17-2003, 09:52 AM
#158
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,828
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
Yup can do it on a gas car.
There are a lot of cars here driving on propane(LPG = Liquid Petrol gas). For gas cars it doesn't give any gains...well the cars here drive on it and the gasoline is for backup.
It's really cheap, but the bottle and installation is expensive
There are a lot of cars here driving on propane(LPG = Liquid Petrol gas). For gas cars it doesn't give any gains...well the cars here drive on it and the gasoline is for backup.
It's really cheap, but the bottle and installation is expensive
10-18-2003, 12:15 AM
#159
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,082
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
I twist tied a windshield squirter onto my bumper so it sprays the radiator, do I get a door prize? also, before I did that I didn't have my temp gauge hooked up and my radiator cracked and then I drove for a while and today I come to find out that my head is fucked up and coolant fills up 3 of my cylinders, yay!!!!!1
would anybody be interested in a water injection kit group buy? I could compile several kits and distribute them if there is enough interest, maybe someone could help me.
would anybody be interested in a water injection kit group buy? I could compile several kits and distribute them if there is enough interest, maybe someone could help me.
10-18-2003, 02:53 PM
#160
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 107
Re:Water Injection - THE FACTS!
Originally Posted by Chacko
1. Reservoir
Eagle Talon Windshield Reservoir
Mitsu Eclipse
Anything that you can tap for a fitting
2. Pump
http://www.pro-spray.com/sprayer_pumps.htm
100 psi. 1.4 gpm.
3. Solenoid Valve
Power Aire
http://www.poweraire.com/100psi_info.htm
4. Water Hammer
Available at home depot
Insures that pressure to pump is always steady
Use 'copper' if possible
5. Water Hoses
Napa - Fuel Hoses (1/4" inner diameter)
Aquamist - Water Lines (1/4" Inner Diameter)
6. Hose Clamps for hoses out diameter
Hardware store
Napa
7. Tephlon tape / Rubber grommet (diameter for the nozzle)
Hardware store
8. Pump, Hammer and Solenoid Fittings
Home Depot
9. Aquamist nozzles and Quick Connectors
Available from Shane
10. Boost Pressure Sensor
Hobbs adjustable pressure switch works
http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/62363072/page5.htm
May also be available from 'air tools' section of Hardware stores
11. Electrical Wire (ground/hot)
Auto parts store
Radio Shack
12. Autmotive Relay for Pump
Auto parts store
13. Fuel Filter
Auto parts store
14. Misc. vacuum Ts and hose connectors (these may or may not be necessary)
- 90 degree 'Vacuum' bends, same for water
15. Good electrical wire to run from battery POS to relay (for pump)
OPTIONAL
16. LEDs
17. Multi-Colored Wire
18. Override Switch
19. Double Stage Injector
- 2 nozzles, 2 fits, 2 solenoids, 2 pressure switches
- Aquamist "Y" fitting
- Additional hoses
20. Pressure Gauge
21. Electronic float (to let you know when fluid reservoir is low)
Shane can be contacted via email: slowrance@austin.rr.com he will do his best to get you the lowest price on Aquamist products. He can also order the entire kits. Please do not ask him tech-questions about water injection, post those here.
