16g help
08-27-2008, 10:23 AM
#51
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13
Re: 16g help
Originally Posted by crx2211
The e316g is packing a relatively small compressor at well under even the 50mm mark. Even the smallest T4's can net that. The only people I hear talking good about the small Mitsu turbochargers are the guys who haven't experienced anything better. Heralding the e316g as anything but an anemic stock turbocharger is ignorant. Best turbocharger money can buy?! You can't be serious! A t3/to4b or to4e will blow the 16g apart. Not to mention a unit like the 30r or 35r (or variants like the 3052 or 3065 for Mitsu guys) that offers quick spool and ferocious top end.
Yeah yeah, guys lay down 400+whp and all this ----, but there are variables that aren't disclosed so it's a moot point. In real world tests things would look very different. What street Honda is going to be running 28-30psi on an e316g? If you put an e316g on a full weight DSM and have the fuel support to max it out, you're not going to be running 10's. People have ran 10's on a 14b as well, but that wasn't on a stock car in any sense, so again a pointless argument.
There's nothing magical about the e316g. It's a sub 50mm turbo with a tiny TD05H turbine wheel and a pencil thin shaft. It is very limited by its size and you have to overboost it to make any sort of real power. That leads to premature failure. It spools fast and hits good for its size, so does deserve some accolades there, but I'll take top end over quick spool any day of the week. Anyway, this could be debated for ages, but any true turbo guru will always tell you that Garrett>Mitsu. I used to be a Mitsu turbo sackrider myself, but then experienced what Garrett had to offer and was an immediate convert. I feel the same would apply to you if given the opportunity.
Yeah yeah, guys lay down 400+whp and all this ----, but there are variables that aren't disclosed so it's a moot point. In real world tests things would look very different. What street Honda is going to be running 28-30psi on an e316g? If you put an e316g on a full weight DSM and have the fuel support to max it out, you're not going to be running 10's. People have ran 10's on a 14b as well, but that wasn't on a stock car in any sense, so again a pointless argument.
There's nothing magical about the e316g. It's a sub 50mm turbo with a tiny TD05H turbine wheel and a pencil thin shaft. It is very limited by its size and you have to overboost it to make any sort of real power. That leads to premature failure. It spools fast and hits good for its size, so does deserve some accolades there, but I'll take top end over quick spool any day of the week. Anyway, this could be debated for ages, but any true turbo guru will always tell you that Garrett>Mitsu. I used to be a Mitsu turbo sackrider myself, but then experienced what Garrett had to offer and was an immediate convert. I feel the same would apply to you if given the opportunity.
I have dealt with garrett units, owned garrett units... every one I have had the unfortune of dealing with alway produced shaft play early in its life and was honestly a pile of crap.
here is a great example after searching for 30 seconds
.
[b]vp c16
Results: 460awhp/469ftlbs
Boost control was a bit of an issue as we approached 30psi as you can see in the graph. The graphs attached are the 30psi run, a 28ish psi run, and a comparison to the pump gas pull.
Car still has a bone stock 7-bolt motor with the exception of cams, ARPs, and a HG. Timing and AFRs are still conservative as it is a DD and has 120k or so on the stock motor. With a good motor and head in the next few weeks I think 500awhp is attainable.[b]
this same car made over 400 on pump not that i want to get into a ewar but its happening all over the world it just takes a good tune and somebody who knows the car. That car above is stock internalls, b/s shafts still there, hks cams and an otherwise stock head...jmf mani and so on just bolt ons
your right there is no comparison of a 16g to a 30r or so on but then again I never said there was lol
08-27-2008, 10:31 AM
#52
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 0
Re: 16g help
MHI<Garrett<Holset/BW
Only MHI's I've owned were 14b's and a 13g. Rocked a 13g on my old hatch while the 14b's were on the talon. Had an old school T3/T04B for a while on the dsm and finally settled on a hx40 in a bolt on housing. Ive heard horrible fail stories about all but when it comes down to it.... Holset ftw
Only MHI's I've owned were 14b's and a 13g. Rocked a 13g on my old hatch while the 14b's were on the talon. Had an old school T3/T04B for a while on the dsm and finally settled on a hx40 in a bolt on housing. Ive heard horrible fail stories about all but when it comes down to it.... Holset ftw
08-27-2008, 11:17 AM
#53
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,453
Re: 16g help
Heli, you said 16g best turbo you can buy new. Unless you edited your post; it's there. Also, the example you listed is on a stock bottom end sure, but it's running race gas (mixed with pump) has a laundry list of bolt-ons and cams and is more than likely doesn't retain the stock ECU. That example is irrelevant in this discussion because the average guy with a Honda or DSM running a 16g on the street won't be running 30psi and race gas. So as far as real world data goes it's not accurate.
People expecting 400whp, hell even 300whp easily, out of their 16g's (even the super special massively efficient EVO3 variant
) are going to be sadly mistaken. The average numbers I see on a 16g powered DSM on a truly stock motor with only minimal fuel support and the stock ECU intact are 250-280whp. That's what the average guy has too, not an AEM or similar powered monster running on a pump/c16 mixture with high dollar bolt-ons, fairly aggressive cams, endless fuel support, and set-up by extremely knowledgeable persons with the sole intent of setting 16g hp records. The bottom line still remains that the average person will make more power with a larger turbo such as a t3/t4 of whatever variant.
And dude with the HX40. A 60mm compressor inducer isn't anything special, but to power yours you have to retain the massive Holset turbine wheel and clunky bolt-on exhaust housing. A 60-1, SC61, or GT35 are all around 60mm and you can get that compressor mated to a T31 or stage 5 T3 turbine wheel and have the same maximum output without lag or shoehorning a giant diesel turbo into your engine bay. No doubt 60mm will turn you out, but again, there are easier and more user friendly ways to make that kind of power.
People expecting 400whp, hell even 300whp easily, out of their 16g's (even the super special massively efficient EVO3 variant
) are going to be sadly mistaken. The average numbers I see on a 16g powered DSM on a truly stock motor with only minimal fuel support and the stock ECU intact are 250-280whp. That's what the average guy has too, not an AEM or similar powered monster running on a pump/c16 mixture with high dollar bolt-ons, fairly aggressive cams, endless fuel support, and set-up by extremely knowledgeable persons with the sole intent of setting 16g hp records. The bottom line still remains that the average person will make more power with a larger turbo such as a t3/t4 of whatever variant. And dude with the HX40. A 60mm compressor inducer isn't anything special, but to power yours you have to retain the massive Holset turbine wheel and clunky bolt-on exhaust housing. A 60-1, SC61, or GT35 are all around 60mm and you can get that compressor mated to a T31 or stage 5 T3 turbine wheel and have the same maximum output without lag or shoehorning a giant diesel turbo into your engine bay. No doubt 60mm will turn you out, but again, there are easier and more user friendly ways to make that kind of power.
08-27-2008, 11:53 AM
#54
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 0
Re: 16g help
CRX, no doubt a sc61 or a 35r will out perform a clunky diesel turbo but look at the price difference. friend of mine paid 750 for his scm6152e while i paid 145 for the holset and 20 for the used housing. im an unlucky one cause my dsm is an auto. i ------ hated the holset in anything but a roll or brake boosting it but for the price i loved the performance i got. not like i care now parted out the dsm and now looking for a honda to go back to 
People expecting 400whp, hell even 300whp easily, out of their 16g's (even the super special massively efficient EVO3 variant) are going to be sadly mistaken. The average numbers I see on a 16g powered DSM on a truly stock motor with only minimal fuel support and the stock ECU intact are 250-280whp. That's what the average guy has too, not an AEM or similar powered monster running on a pump/c16 mixture with high dollar bolt-ons, fairly aggressive cams, endless fuel support, and set-up by extremely knowledgeable persons with the sole intent of setting 16g hp records. The bottom line still remains that the average person will make more power with a larger turbo such as a t3/t4 of whatever variant.
http://homepage.mac.com/stevestrzemp...Theater48.html
theres a buddy of mine dynoing on there 289/304 on a 14b bone stock 1g-7bolt smic 550's 255 safc and stock ecu
Originally Posted by crx2211
People expecting 400whp, hell even 300whp easily, out of their 16g's (even the super special massively efficient EVO3 variant
) are going to be sadly mistaken. The average numbers I see on a 16g powered DSM on a truly stock motor with only minimal fuel support and the stock ECU intact are 250-280whp. That's what the average guy has too, not an AEM or similar powered monster running on a pump/c16 mixture with high dollar bolt-ons, fairly aggressive cams, endless fuel support, and set-up by extremely knowledgeable persons with the sole intent of setting 16g hp records. The bottom line still remains that the average person will make more power with a larger turbo such as a t3/t4 of whatever variant. theres a buddy of mine dynoing on there 289/304 on a 14b bone stock 1g-7bolt smic 550's 255 safc and stock ecu
08-27-2008, 01:36 PM
#55
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13
Re: 16g help
Originally Posted by crx2211
Heli, you said 16g best turbo you can buy new. Unless you edited your post; it's there. Also, the example you listed is on a stock bottom end sure, but it's running race gas (mixed with pump) has a laundry list of bolt-ons and cams and is more than likely doesn't retain the stock ECU. That example is irrelevant in this discussion because the average guy with a Honda or DSM running a 16g on the street won't be running 30psi and race gas. So as far as real world data goes it's not accurate.
People expecting 400whp, hell even 300whp easily, out of their 16g's (even the super special massively efficient EVO3 variant) are going to be sadly mistaken. The average numbers I see on a 16g powered DSM on a truly stock motor with only minimal fuel support and the stock ECU intact are 250-280whp. That's what the average guy has too, not an AEM or similar powered monster running on a pump/c16 mixture with high dollar bolt-ons, fairly aggressive cams, endless fuel support, and set-up by extremely knowledgeable persons with the sole intent of setting 16g hp records. The bottom line still remains that the average person will make more power with a larger turbo such as a t3/t4 of whatever variant.
And dude with the HX40. A 60mm compressor inducer isn't anything special, but to power yours you have to retain the massive Holset turbine wheel and clunky bolt-on exhaust housing. A 60-1, SC61, or GT35 are all around 60mm and you can get that compressor mated to a T31 or stage 5 T3 turbine wheel and have the same maximum output without lag or shoehorning a giant diesel turbo into your engine bay. No doubt 60mm will turn you out, but again, there are easier and more user friendly ways to make that kind of power.
People expecting 400whp, hell even 300whp easily, out of their 16g's (even the super special massively efficient EVO3 variant
) are going to be sadly mistaken. The average numbers I see on a 16g powered DSM on a truly stock motor with only minimal fuel support and the stock ECU intact are 250-280whp. That's what the average guy has too, not an AEM or similar powered monster running on a pump/c16 mixture with high dollar bolt-ons, fairly aggressive cams, endless fuel support, and set-up by extremely knowledgeable persons with the sole intent of setting 16g hp records. The bottom line still remains that the average person will make more power with a larger turbo such as a t3/t4 of whatever variant. And dude with the HX40. A 60mm compressor inducer isn't anything special, but to power yours you have to retain the massive Holset turbine wheel and clunky bolt-on exhaust housing. A 60-1, SC61, or GT35 are all around 60mm and you can get that compressor mated to a T31 or stage 5 T3 turbine wheel and have the same maximum output without lag or shoehorning a giant diesel turbo into your engine bay. No doubt 60mm will turn you out, but again, there are easier and more user friendly ways to make that kind of power.
yes a street guy wont be running race gas but if you read that exact same setup on that car mad 400 on pump lol
yes of course the average guy will make more hp witha t3/t4 but making 300 isnt exactly shooting for the stars or anything it is easily acheavible with a small 16g much less the evoIII model.
a laundry list of bolt ons, cams, intake manifold,fmic and good fuel support is not a laundry list of parts hell that could be acheived with a couple grand in parts. :shrug: getting 300hp out of a 16g is not exactly hard to do maybe its the fact that i worked for a dsm performance shop for a few years but its pretty damn normal to see over 300 wheel I know lucas english made 365 if i remember right w/o cams on a 16g i believe that was a pump gas tune and stock engine internals/head <-- dont quote me that conversation happened a long time ago.
and yeah I think 16g is a great price per performance buy the things cost a whopping 580soming dollars and you can find them cheaper if there is a deal
also you are right 30psi on a street car, especially a honda is probably not your typical street car but were not discussing trying to make 500hp out of it now are we? I simply used those as examples that there is plenty of proof that they do make big hp and that it is not all that uncommon to see them running 25psi+
it sounds like the average dsm guys you deal with are also average idiots.. its nothing above needing and having supportings modifications that a turbocharged car should have.... fule.... logging... tuning.. ect
08-27-2008, 11:39 PM
#56
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,453
Re: 16g help
Your unwillingness to comprehend any reasonable data astounds me. Blah blah, Luca English this Curt Brown that. STFU and die! Name dropping jacktard. Yeah those guys are the average DSMer . I'm done looking at huge blocks of text and trying to respond to ---- that is futile. Bottom line is that a 16g isn't the best turbo, not even for the money. So $580? A t3/60-1 is $550. You still going to tell me the 16g is better than a 60-1? You're just arguing for the sake of arguing anyway, so DIAF knewb!
. I'm done looking at huge blocks of text and trying to respond to ---- that is futile. Bottom line is that a 16g isn't the best turbo, not even for the money. So $580? A t3/60-1 is $550. You still going to tell me the 16g is better than a 60-1? You're just arguing for the sake of arguing anyway, so DIAF knewb!
08-28-2008, 01:36 PM
#59
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13
Re: 16g help
Originally Posted by crx2211
Your unwillingness to comprehend any reasonable data astounds me. Blah blah, Luca English this Curt Brown that. STFU and die! Name dropping jacktard. Yeah those guys are the average DSMer . I'm done looking at huge blocks of text and trying to respond to ---- that is futile. Bottom line is that a 16g isn't the best turbo, not even for the money. So $580? A t3/60-1 is $550. You still going to tell me the 16g is better than a 60-1? You're just arguing for the sake of arguing anyway, so DIAF knewb!
. I'm done looking at huge blocks of text and trying to respond to ---- that is futile. Bottom line is that a 16g isn't the best turbo, not even for the money. So $580? A t3/60-1 is $550. You still going to tell me the 16g is better than a 60-1? You're just arguing for the sake of arguing anyway, so DIAF knewb! I have plenty of hands on expierence "shrug" you have the same mantality more forced induction guys have believe that a bigger compressor trim is the answer to everything when in reality a more efficent setup would net better 1/4 times and simply create a more responsive and usable power range... you must be a honda guy because from what I have seen bigger turbos are more often the answer to fwd guys espiecally honda bagjockeys.
and you still keep comparing 50/60 trim turbochargers to a sub 50 unit lol
lets compare a t25 to a 20g lol
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
Well, yeah? Could have made that power off of 100LL, or 110, no need to spend out for VP c16. What turbo were they running, by the way?
08-28-2008, 11:39 PM
#60
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,453
Re: 16g help
You are officially retarded and refuse to admit your sacred little 16g isn't the most bawler turbo since the RayJay units that came on the Ferrari's or Corvair's. You're arguing a losing point and are only making yourself look dumber. Of course I'm comparing the 16g to a 60-1 because this whole time I've been arguing with your statement, "the evo3 16g is the best new turbo for the money." You've just been arguing about nonsense.
Also, I drive both a 2G Talon AWD and a Honda. The Talon doesn't have a 16g on it either. It has a GT3255E. That's what I found to be both efficient and powerful and to fit my set-up nicely. So you keep masturbating to thoughts of the E316G and thinking that it'll net you an easy 400whp, and I'll enjoy barely pushing my GT32 and making the same power a 16g would if nearly maxed out. /Retardation
Also, I drive both a 2G Talon AWD and a Honda. The Talon doesn't have a 16g on it either. It has a GT3255E. That's what I found to be both efficient and powerful and to fit my set-up nicely. So you keep masturbating to thoughts of the E316G and thinking that it'll net you an easy 400whp, and I'll enjoy barely pushing my GT32 and making the same power a 16g would if nearly maxed out. /Retardation
