16g help
08-21-2008, 07:58 PM
#42
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,453
Re: 16g help
Originally Posted by Hitchhikkr
+1 I partially agree with you.
Actually, the 20G isnt a real turbo. Mistubishi never made anything called a '20g' There is a tdo6H compressor (with a td05h centersection) and various forms of the 17c and 18g, but the '20g' is not a factory mhi turbo. Its an 18g with a bigger compressor wheel somebody made back in the day, and has evolved to what it is now. An overpriced, poorly engineered hybrid.
MHI turbos will last a minute at lower boost levels, I agree. But its a well known problem that the turbine shaft is about half the size it should be. Most of the ppl on this board who run a MHI turbo are in the sub-300hp range, and have no problems. Above that for any amount of time the turbo wont last. I untill recently had a pile of random MHI turbos, and, was at one point making one turbo from three. Trust me though, they do fail.
The price of the MHI turbos VS. the price for the equivelent Garrett unit makes me lean towards the more abundant, better parts market turbo.
The mitsu-feces exhaust housing simply does not have the flow capability of a t3, unless extensively modified.
crx2211, im not trying to argue with you, but you cant put an MHI turbo in the same boat as a Garrett or BW turbo. Price, reliability, function, all fall to the latter two. Thats my opinion based on my personal experience.
Actually, the 20G isnt a real turbo. Mistubishi never made anything called a '20g' There is a tdo6H compressor (with a td05h centersection) and various forms of the 17c and 18g, but the '20g' is not a factory mhi turbo. Its an 18g with a bigger compressor wheel somebody made back in the day, and has evolved to what it is now. An overpriced, poorly engineered hybrid.
MHI turbos will last a minute at lower boost levels, I agree. But its a well known problem that the turbine shaft is about half the size it should be. Most of the ppl on this board who run a MHI turbo are in the sub-300hp range, and have no problems. Above that for any amount of time the turbo wont last. I untill recently had a pile of random MHI turbos, and, was at one point making one turbo from three. Trust me though, they do fail.
The price of the MHI turbos VS. the price for the equivelent Garrett unit makes me lean towards the more abundant, better parts market turbo.
The mitsu-feces exhaust housing simply does not have the flow capability of a t3, unless extensively modified.
crx2211, im not trying to argue with you, but you cant put an MHI turbo in the same boat as a Garrett or BW turbo. Price, reliability, function, all fall to the latter two. Thats my opinion based on my personal experience.
I think we both addressed the issue that the Mitsu turbos have small shafts, and IMO that would be their biggest downfall. The 7cm hotside really isn't bad, especially properly ported, but again, it's not designed for absolute top end power. The 20G will make over 300whp on pump gas too. I've personally witnessed one last for 3+ years at just over 20psi which is an easy 300whp for sure. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Garrett>Mitsu, but the Mitsu turbo will perform just fine as long as you know their limits is all I'm saying.
08-24-2008, 04:26 AM
#46
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,453
Re: 16g help
Originally Posted by 2GeclipseRST
There are meth turbo hondas pushing 35+ psi with long manifolds.
I wouldn't worry about the manifold being a problem unless it's got some serious flow issues inside the tubes due to half-assed noob welds.
I wouldn't worry about the manifold being a problem unless it's got some serious flow issues inside the tubes due to half-assed noob welds.
08-27-2008, 04:26 AM
#47
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13
Re: 16g help
woah I got forwarded this thread and had to give my 2 cents.
from my experience with both small garrett and mhi units the evoIII16g in particular is probably the best turbocharger money can buy for a new unit.
As far as not supporting large hp for a long time, granted large hp is a very vague term especially when speaking of honda's since they tend to make such a good power to weight ratio they run fast with 300-350hp especially in a crx. But make no mistake these turbochargers are putting guys with good tuning and ic setups over 400hp on pump and propelling dsm guys into the 10s. I believe there making over 500 on e85 im not for sure if that barrier was broken yet
as far as saying big16g will if its not the evoIII version of the 16g will is a very undesirable turbocharger in fact they have done dyno testing from the small to the big 16g and actually lost hp with the larger unit beings its horrible inefficiency. The evoIII model is the ones that really shines its efficient and makes good power for its size.
Flame me if you must but I have simply seen more small mhi turbochargers running around with 100-200+k on them than small garretts I had a 1gb talon completely stock when I purchased it from the owner I was the third owner at the time and the turbocharger on it had never been changed I ran it up to almost 180k before I pulled it on and it was still completely servacible, it only had minor shaft play. Granted it never seen anything over stock boost for 150K of its life but the proof is still there.
I believe I guy in eugean oregon made well over 300hp with a evoIII16g on a LS motor stock other than h/g studs, rod bolts and cams... and all the other typical supporting mods a turbo car would have.
point is I would stick with the easy, price, and dependability of the 16g turbocharger, there is a lot more to a good turbo setup that is going to make the power other than simply trim size. You will make more usable power out of performing other modifications to the car than just simply upping the turbo size with a garrett unit. cams, short runner intake manifold too many people opt for turbo size upgrade rather than building an efficient turbo car ect ect ect ect
and to the guy that said the evo8 turbo is so much diff.
the evo3 16g and the evo8 16g have identical compressor major and minor diameters. they also have identical blade thickness, hub diameter, and fin curvature. that larger compressor housing is what really helps it push more slightly more air than the evo3. they are not all that different
im off to bed to sober up
from my experience with both small garrett and mhi units the evoIII16g in particular is probably the best turbocharger money can buy for a new unit.
As far as not supporting large hp for a long time, granted large hp is a very vague term especially when speaking of honda's since they tend to make such a good power to weight ratio they run fast with 300-350hp especially in a crx. But make no mistake these turbochargers are putting guys with good tuning and ic setups over 400hp on pump and propelling dsm guys into the 10s. I believe there making over 500 on e85 im not for sure if that barrier was broken yet
as far as saying big16g will if its not the evoIII version of the 16g will is a very undesirable turbocharger in fact they have done dyno testing from the small to the big 16g and actually lost hp with the larger unit beings its horrible inefficiency. The evoIII model is the ones that really shines its efficient and makes good power for its size.
Flame me if you must but I have simply seen more small mhi turbochargers running around with 100-200+k on them than small garretts I had a 1gb talon completely stock when I purchased it from the owner I was the third owner at the time and the turbocharger on it had never been changed I ran it up to almost 180k before I pulled it on and it was still completely servacible, it only had minor shaft play. Granted it never seen anything over stock boost for 150K of its life but the proof is still there.
I believe I guy in eugean oregon made well over 300hp with a evoIII16g on a LS motor stock other than h/g studs, rod bolts and cams... and all the other typical supporting mods a turbo car would have.
point is I would stick with the easy, price, and dependability of the 16g turbocharger, there is a lot more to a good turbo setup that is going to make the power other than simply trim size. You will make more usable power out of performing other modifications to the car than just simply upping the turbo size with a garrett unit. cams, short runner intake manifold too many people opt for turbo size upgrade rather than building an efficient turbo car ect ect ect ect
and to the guy that said the evo8 turbo is so much diff.
the evo3 16g and the evo8 16g have identical compressor major and minor diameters. they also have identical blade thickness, hub diameter, and fin curvature. that larger compressor housing is what really helps it push more slightly more air than the evo3. they are not all that different
im off to bed to sober up
08-27-2008, 04:57 AM
#48
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,453
Re: 16g help
The e316g is packing a relatively small compressor at well under even the 50mm mark. Even the smallest T4's can net that. The only people I hear talking good about the small Mitsu turbochargers are the guys who haven't experienced anything better. Heralding the e316g as anything but an anemic stock turbocharger is ignorant. Best turbocharger money can buy?! You can't be serious! A t3/to4b or to4e will blow the 16g apart. Not to mention a unit like the 30r or 35r (or variants like the 3052 or 3065 for Mitsu guys) that offers quick spool and ferocious top end.
Yeah yeah, guys lay down 400+whp and all this ----, but there are variables that aren't disclosed so it's a moot point. In real world tests things would look very different. What street Honda is going to be running 28-30psi on an e316g? If you put an e316g on a full weight DSM and have the fuel support to max it out, you're not going to be running 10's. People have ran 10's on a 14b as well, but that wasn't on a stock car in any sense, so again a pointless argument.
There's nothing magical about the e316g. It's a sub 50mm turbo with a tiny TD05H turbine wheel and a pencil thin shaft. It is very limited by its size and you have to overboost it to make any sort of real power. That leads to premature failure. It spools fast and hits good for its size, so does deserve some accolades there, but I'll take top end over quick spool any day of the week. Anyway, this could be debated for ages, but any true turbo guru will always tell you that Garrett>Mitsu. I used to be a Mitsu turbo sackrider myself, but then experienced what Garrett had to offer and was an immediate convert. I feel the same would apply to you if given the opportunity.
Yeah yeah, guys lay down 400+whp and all this ----, but there are variables that aren't disclosed so it's a moot point. In real world tests things would look very different. What street Honda is going to be running 28-30psi on an e316g? If you put an e316g on a full weight DSM and have the fuel support to max it out, you're not going to be running 10's. People have ran 10's on a 14b as well, but that wasn't on a stock car in any sense, so again a pointless argument.
There's nothing magical about the e316g. It's a sub 50mm turbo with a tiny TD05H turbine wheel and a pencil thin shaft. It is very limited by its size and you have to overboost it to make any sort of real power. That leads to premature failure. It spools fast and hits good for its size, so does deserve some accolades there, but I'll take top end over quick spool any day of the week. Anyway, this could be debated for ages, but any true turbo guru will always tell you that Garrett>Mitsu. I used to be a Mitsu turbo sackrider myself, but then experienced what Garrett had to offer and was an immediate convert. I feel the same would apply to you if given the opportunity.
08-27-2008, 09:39 AM
#50
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
Re: 16g help
Originally Posted by heli_easy
Flame me if you must but I have simply seen more small mhi turbochargers running around with 100-200+k on them than small garretts I had a 1gb talon completely stock when I purchased it from the owner I was the third owner at the time and the turbocharger on it had never been changed I ran it up to almost 180k before I pulled it on and it was still completely servacible, it only had minor shaft play. Granted it never seen anything over stock boost for 150K of its life but the proof is still there.
I believe I guy in eugean oregon made well over 300hp with a evoIII16g on a LS motor stock other than h/g studs, rod bolts and cams... and all the other typical supporting mods a turbo car would have.
point is I would stick with the easy, price, and dependability of the 16g turbocharger, there is a lot more to a good turbo setup that is going to make the power other than simply trim size. You will make more usable power out of performing other modifications to the car than just simply upping the turbo size with a garrett unit. cams, short runner intake manifold too many people opt for turbo size upgrade rather than building an efficient turbo car ect ect ect ect
However, the problem really lies with the fact that most of the mitsu turbos have their eff. range at such a high pressure ratio (in comparison to 99% of garrett) that its doomed from the factory.
I also have owned 3 dsms. My first talon had 170K on it when I sold it, and ran consistant 12.40's on a 14b. Any turbo will live forever with proper oil flow at stock boost levels. Thats not the point. Show me anyone who claims they have 100k miles on a MHI turbo who's making decent power and ill show you a liar.
I do disagree about the money/value. And disagree with 'efficient setup' and '16g' in the same sentence. A 50trim to4E garrett compressor is far more efficent at a lower pressure ratio, and can make more power, without sacrificing spool, and will last forever assuming the installer understands oil flow.
And if you wanna talk about holsets....
