Water Injection 2007
08-24-2007, 07:57 AM
#1
1.0 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 247
Water Injection 2007
Hey hey all the previous Post about water injection know all the fact's stared in 2003. Now its 2007.
2003 was along time ago and im shure all who have used it have learnt something new and we will be able to Exspell the Myth's So lets Fire up this Thread one more Time.
Is Water Injection really a band Aid for a bad/poorly designed/forged motor?
2003 was along time ago and im shure all who have used it have learnt something new and we will be able to Exspell the Myth's So lets Fire up this Thread one more Time.
Is Water Injection really a band Aid for a bad/poorly designed/forged motor?
08-24-2007, 08:22 AM
#2
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 44
Re: Water Injection 2007
I have always thought about it how benificial is PURE WATER INJECTION? does anyone have some stat's cos i know water will supress Detonation/Drop intake Temp. Hence have a Much Healthier/Less strained/ Cooler running engine.
Or is Pure Water Injection just a Myth?
Or does Water Injection actually mean Water & methonal Injection?
Water meth is More Dangerous! it needs more tuning.
I understand meth increases octane and running water meth is piontless if you dont advance timing/Increase boost correct?
But meth costs $$$$ and isnt always Avavlible like water that is free/always avalible?
what si your guys thoughts and view.s
Or is Pure Water Injection just a Myth?
Or does Water Injection actually mean Water & methonal Injection?
Water meth is More Dangerous! it needs more tuning.
I understand meth increases octane and running water meth is piontless if you dont advance timing/Increase boost correct?
But meth costs $$$$ and isnt always Avavlible like water that is free/always avalible?
what si your guys thoughts and view.s
08-24-2007, 08:37 AM
#3
1.0 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 247
Re: Water Injection 2007
this is the 2003 Post https://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/...p?topic=4257.0
I have read th Whole Post and there isnt actually any stats on how benficial the water injection is, i know they discuss creating the water injection kit, but now they are readily avlible for very gewd prices all over the globe. Why reinvent the wheel right?
I think this is the cream of the crop over the 4 pages (As per Above Link)
Only Still working links
http://www.angelfire.com/super/buickgn/index.html
http://users.frii.com/maphill/wi.html
http://www.imoc.co.uk/technical/article/wi.htm
I have read th Whole Post and there isnt actually any stats on how benficial the water injection is, i know they discuss creating the water injection kit, but now they are readily avlible for very gewd prices all over the globe. Why reinvent the wheel right?
I think this is the cream of the crop over the 4 pages (As per Above Link)
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
Steven Dick and I have been discussing this for the past several days. I'm not sure that you need a pump capable of 100 psi... you can get 45-60 psi pumps for $40 if you look, and rigging them to run a bit more psi than that is fairly easy.
Check out this link Steven kicked me tonight: http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information...rInjection.htm
150 degree temp drop with water injection, all at or below 40 psi on a setup that boosts to 15+ psi. Hardcore.
Check out this link Steven kicked me tonight: http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information...rInjection.htm
150 degree temp drop with water injection, all at or below 40 psi on a setup that boosts to 15+ psi. Hardcore.
Originally Posted by donalson
this may be somewhat incroct.. but not in full 
the water is sprayed in in a VERY fine mist... because of it being so fine and how hot the intake temps are the water nearly instantiosly turns into steam... a gassios state for water (water is liquid, ice, or steam) while it'd soing this it rapidly cools down the intake carge because of the engergy required to convert water to steam.
because the water is turned into steam you no longer have to wory about hydro lock in the cylinders (water doesn't compress... gas does)... also because of steam being present it supposidly helps clean the valves and stuff because of the hot mositure... though i can't say how true that is.
the problem w/ this is injecting to much water at some point will mean not all the water is being converted into gas so you're injecting stright water, to much water and the motor goes BOOM because of hydro lock.
mark
the water is sprayed in in a VERY fine mist... because of it being so fine and how hot the intake temps are the water nearly instantiosly turns into steam... a gassios state for water (water is liquid, ice, or steam) while it'd soing this it rapidly cools down the intake carge because of the engergy required to convert water to steam.
because the water is turned into steam you no longer have to wory about hydro lock in the cylinders (water doesn't compress... gas does)... also because of steam being present it supposidly helps clean the valves and stuff because of the hot mositure... though i can't say how true that is.
the problem w/ this is injecting to much water at some point will mean not all the water is being converted into gas so you're injecting stright water, to much water and the motor goes BOOM because of hydro lock.
mark
Originally Posted by Chacko
I am going to start experimenting with the burns for methanol. Toulene can be purchased at paint stores right?
I want to really see which explodes more 'controllably', or rather with less rage behind the explosion.
I am finding that mixing more methanol then water will actually make the engine run a bit smoother and quieter. If you run nothing but water, the engine bogs a little, and it doesn't seem to have a lasting cooling effect.
I haven't risked trying it with pure methanol, as I think its to flamable by itself. Hopefully I'll be able to test enough to see what chemicals might be mixed the best.
My other questions then are, how acidic or basic is toulene?
I want to really see which explodes more 'controllably', or rather with less rage behind the explosion.
I am finding that mixing more methanol then water will actually make the engine run a bit smoother and quieter. If you run nothing but water, the engine bogs a little, and it doesn't seem to have a lasting cooling effect.
I haven't risked trying it with pure methanol, as I think its to flamable by itself. Hopefully I'll be able to test enough to see what chemicals might be mixed the best.
My other questions then are, how acidic or basic is toulene?
Originally Posted by Chacko
I am going to start experimenting with the burns for methanol. Toulene can be purchased at paint stores right?
I want to really see which explodes more 'controllably', or rather with less rage behind the explosion.
I am finding that mixing more methanol then water will actually make the engine run a bit smoother and quieter. If you run nothing but water, the engine bogs a little, and it doesn't seem to have a lasting cooling effect.
I haven't risked trying it with pure methanol, as I think its to flamable by itself. Hopefully I'll be able to test enough to see what chemicals might be mixed the best.
My other questions then are, how acidic or basic is toulene?
I want to really see which explodes more 'controllably', or rather with less rage behind the explosion.
I am finding that mixing more methanol then water will actually make the engine run a bit smoother and quieter. If you run nothing but water, the engine bogs a little, and it doesn't seem to have a lasting cooling effect.
I haven't risked trying it with pure methanol, as I think its to flamable by itself. Hopefully I'll be able to test enough to see what chemicals might be mixed the best.
My other questions then are, how acidic or basic is toulene?
http://www.angelfire.com/super/buickgn/index.html
http://users.frii.com/maphill/wi.html
http://www.imoc.co.uk/technical/article/wi.htm
08-24-2007, 10:41 AM
#4
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 204
Re: Water Injection 2007
08-24-2007, 11:23 AM
#5
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,631
Re: Water Injection 2007
Originally Posted by circleburner
I have always thought about it how benificial is PURE WATER INJECTION? does anyone have some stat's cos i know water will supress Detonation/Drop intake Temp. Hence have a Much Healthier/Less strained/ Cooler running engine.
Or is Pure Water Injection just a Myth?
Or does Water Injection actually mean Water & methonal Injection?
Water meth is More Dangerous! it needs more tuning.
I understand meth increases octane and running water meth is piontless if you dont advance timing/Increase boost correct?
But meth costs $$$$ and isnt always Avavlible like water that is free/always avalible?
what si your guys thoughts and view.s
Or is Pure Water Injection just a Myth?
Or does Water Injection actually mean Water & methonal Injection?
Water meth is More Dangerous! it needs more tuning.
I understand meth increases octane and running water meth is piontless if you dont advance timing/Increase boost correct?
But meth costs $$$$ and isnt always Avavlible like water that is free/always avalible?
what si your guys thoughts and view.s
?
08-26-2007, 11:17 AM
#7
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 391
Re: Water Injection 2007
http://www.customobsessions.com/modu...wtopic&t=10252
an article i did a while back on a local forum!
an article i did a while back on a local forum!
08-26-2007, 01:10 PM
#8
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 752
Re: Water Injection 2007
Water injection cools the intake charge: False
thats not true, urrrr, i mean it is true, urrrr, you know what i mean.
it does cool the intake charge if you spray it somewhere further back than the ports. assuming you spray it fine enough, and the air you spray it into is hot enough. without those factors, you dont have the surface area or desire to change state. hence the desire for a high pressure pump to push the same volume of water through a smaller orifice as a lower pressure pump would push through a bigger orifice, but making far far more use of it.
thats not true, urrrr, i mean it is true, urrrr, you know what i mean.
it does cool the intake charge if you spray it somewhere further back than the ports. assuming you spray it fine enough, and the air you spray it into is hot enough. without those factors, you dont have the surface area or desire to change state. hence the desire for a high pressure pump to push the same volume of water through a smaller orifice as a lower pressure pump would push through a bigger orifice, but making far far more use of it.
08-26-2007, 02:35 PM
#9
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Water Injection 1927
Originally Posted by Schwitzer Turbo
Hey hey all the previous Post about water injection know all the fact's stared in 2003. Now its 2007.
2003 was along time ago and im shure all who have used it have learnt something new and we will be able to Exspell the Myth's
2003 was along time ago and im shure all who have used it have learnt something new and we will be able to Exspell the Myth's
Here is the 0.01%, can everyone remove their head from their *** and pay attention to it?
Water Injection Myths
Fred, if you read and refer to the articles I posted, based off of Ricardo's work in the 20s, you will see that zero appreciable intake charge cooling takes place. For thermal transfer you need TIME, temperature DIFFERENTIAL, and SURFACE AREA. Changing system dynamics means significantly changing one or all of these things - for water injection in an infernal combustion engine, you can marginally influence one of these, maybe two with a stupid complex iced down water reservior.
You can't manipulate the SURFACE AREA by any means but spraying more water. Reducing surface tension with acetone or some other surfactant is going to give minimal gains - a correctly designed nozzle + pressure does a great job, and some surface tension prevents the droplets from rejoining as easily.
You can possibly manipulate TIME by spraying water further back in the charge piping (thereby causing it to fall out of suspension with the air, defeating the purpose, and causing it to draw heat out of the charge pipe and intake tract and carrying that thermal mass into the engine, thereby defeating the purpose...)... but when you take into account how quickly the air is passing through a 2.5" charge pipe at moderate 250-300 whp level, uhm, a couple milliseconds? Have fun playing with that massive increase in dwell time for thermal transfer to occur. You get a significant drop in IAT readings because it's steady state submerged in water droplets aka wet thermometer effect, but the real world charge temps don't flicker.
That leaves you with another un-manipulatible, temperature DIFFERENTIAL. These temps mean a lot when you are approaching knock limit, but as far as an impetus for thermal transfer? Forty to sixty ------- degrees Fahrenheit equate to ---- all on the scale we are talking about.
08-26-2007, 03:56 PM
#10
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 752
Re: Water Injection 2007
although i'm not arguing that the charge temp drop is significant, i disagree that 20 - 30 degrees K is insignificant.
and i do think that well implemented with a mist, not a hosing, it will evaporate fast enough providing that the incoming air is pretty hot. read if you are stupid enough to not use good intercooling and an efficient turbo for your flow, there is a benefit in charge temperature. which is how i qualified what i said in the first place.
the statement was made that it "doesnt cool intake charge" implying "at all"
i was correcting it in that context of being not quite perfectly stated.
excuse my mild form of Aspergers and thus pedantic annoying habits of language fussiness.
and i do think that well implemented with a mist, not a hosing, it will evaporate fast enough providing that the incoming air is pretty hot. read if you are stupid enough to not use good intercooling and an efficient turbo for your flow, there is a benefit in charge temperature. which is how i qualified what i said in the first place.
the statement was made that it "doesnt cool intake charge" implying "at all"
i was correcting it in that context of being not quite perfectly stated.
excuse my mild form of Aspergers and thus pedantic annoying habits of language fussiness.
