How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

I'd like to preface by saying that i google-searched for hmt threads on this, and it was fruitless.

Secondly, I'd like to keep this away from the typical H-T-type "well 'everyone' says you'll spin a bearing blah blah blah".

We've all heard endless bitching about ls rod bolts, how they are the same size as dseries rod bolts and anything higher than stock rev limit will cause them to stretch, resulting in a spun bearing.

But I'm wondering how many people actually have experience with pushing ls rod bolts. JD and I have talked about this a little bit, I'll let him chime in with his own info though. I'd just like to hear more success stories, or REAL DOCUMENTED failures of ls rod bolts. That is, failures that were most certainly due to ls rod bolts being "weak", not "oh well i had some oiling issues, but it had to be those damn ls rod bolts". Or, "I had no clue what I was doing when I built my motor, but it had to be those shitty ls rod bolts!"


I'll personally share:

I know two guys who at this very moment are running stock lsvtecs (stock ls bottom, stock gsr head on both i believe). One is na, the other is boosted at 10psi w/an sc50. They both rev to about 8k, and neither has had an issue at all. The turbo one has probably been running 5ish months. The other one I have no idea, but definately much longer than that.

I also, last weekend was at a friends house modding some ic piping, when his good friend (knowledgable also) was telling us about his old integra, with stock bottom ls, with built top end (port work, cams, bolt-ons etc) and he'd rev above 8k on a regular basis (he also had an itr tranny).

So, some REAL discussion about this would be great. Thanks guys!

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

so why isn't this in the Ls/Vtec thread i created all of 12 hours ago ::)

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Many people rapped ls bottom ends in the original ls/vtec era. A friend of mine had one stock ls bottom end and rev was set at 8200 and was brought to alot. The problem in my view which applies to alot of these motors is simple ls motors are old now. Hell a b18a1 can be 18 years old so ya the motor is already askin to have carnage of it hasnt already



150k ls block
+raping above factory rev


ya the chance is things will fail

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

because then it would've come up, someone would say, "get arp rod bolts" and that would be the end of the discussion.


chris, thanks for the insight.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

2 years on stock rod bolts. Sees 8200 fairly often and has seen 8500 on occasion.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

They are factory forged rods. The big end is tiny compared to B16 or GSR, but that doesn't mean ----. When the rod itself fails it breaks across the beam, and that is rare.

Trickturn, who owns carolinahondas.com, had an early ECHC engine with 40K miles on it last I saw it running. B20 block, stock (PR4 aka LS) rods, stock bolts, etc, revved to 8500 rpms daily. Keep in mind, this is not just 8500 rpms on an LS rod it's 8500 rpms with a larger-than-LS 84mm slug on the end of it. I'll ask him to post his experiences here.

I force-overrevved my old B18A1 past 10K three times, every last time I had to go back and adjust the valves becuase they were ticking. I didn't change the oil but every 15K whether it needed it or not, and it was turbo for 10K miles. When a 30 degree section of number 4 ring land broke I tore the engine down and all the bearings in it looked new. It had 170K on it.

Every spun rod or rod knocking LS I have seen had the stock fastener reused a couple of times, or the upper bearing half was very worn which means the problem was detonation not rod bolt stretch. You hear a lot of noise from the low-buck LS/VTEC crowd, but those tards strap on VTEC heads without changing pistons and somehow don't think that 33mm intake valves aren't going to smack against 31mm piston flycuts when they proceed to rev the engine to 9K with the usual mis-assembly problems (out of time, detonating, head milled a lot but dowel pins aren't shortened, oil pressure problems, etc) that accompany anything built by idiots.

They are great engines. The newest one is six years old now, and average "expected mileage" on it should be 90K based off a 15K/yr driving average. Like chris said, everything worth running requires building these days.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

point taken. Awesome info from JD too.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Hi, I'm Trickturn on carolinahondas.com

I still have the engine that Joseph is referring to & recently went to Deal's Gap & had some fun w/ it in my EG.

My B20/vtec engine: Stock JDM B20B bottomend uncut valve reliefs w/ a JDM 1st gen B16A head held together by ARP studs.

My rev limit is set @ 8200 rpms (Used to be 8500 until new dyno tune & new powerband)
This engine has 55k miles on it... on top of whatever it had in Japan.

I have:

Raced this engine @ countless drag strips
Raced this engine @ countless road circuits
Been to Deal's Gap several times w/ this engine

The only problem I have had w/ the engine is needing to adjust the valves.

The one who started this thread was looking for experiences... those are mine!

Have a good day,

Pete

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

I too know a guy who builds engines as his job. IIRC he had a B20/vtec with ITR pistons and thats about it. Revved to 8500+ each day...after it warmed up. Beat the piss out of it. The motor eventually threw a rod, actually, albeit it was a stock (and likely reused) fastener, as he gets b20's for nothing. I guess my point is that not all rods or conditions are created equal. But I'm entirely sold on the idea that most broken engines are from user error durring assembly.

BTW JD, I'm curious about your 'big end' statement. All d16/b16/b18's have the same rod journal size of 48mm. Its the width that is different - B18a/b,B20,B16 are widest, then d16's, then b18cX's. At least says my info sheet. I can't see it being wrong in many spots though, everything I've been able to check is correct.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

I was talking about the rod itself, where the big end transitions to the beam.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Thanks guys for all the great info so far! It's exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for.

HiProfile, when you say the motor threw a rod, would that be a result of anything with the rod bolts? Thanks for you personal experience.

B20Pete, your experience is quite helpful.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

I look at it more as peace of mind, to reiterate on what Chris said. These motors are getting old. You wouldn't got out and spend the money for a factory turbo'd porsche and then run regular in the tank, kind of the same deal here.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

I agree, slo, it isn't like ARP is expensive either. My stance on the subject is that bad tech like this is the product of illogical thought processes and bandwagoning. Both are counter productive; while these engines are getting old and any serious (even budget) build will use ARP or better yet TT rods, if your mind is trained to follow other people's illogical thought processes instead of thinking for yourself then your build will be flawed. Unless you follow HT doctrine of "replace everything at top dollar prices because I'm too stupid to think," of course.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

You make a valid point. In all honesty I can say I've never seen a stock LS rod bolt break, most I've seen is a stretched out rod end from a brutal missed downshift.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

itr pistons in a b20 huh. 3mm difference in piston to bore there seems like it might be an issue

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Good eyes...I missed that one completely :S

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

well while were at it b20's especially b20b's are basically being handed out at importers these days low mileage much less than your typical ls block but then you have issues with the sleeves.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

The ONLY way I could even think that is legit is if that builder used the ITR spec RC Eng pistons for his B20.

Other than that, his IIRC could only be good if he was using muffler spacers around the piston so he wouldn't get blow by. You can get those @ most Import Shops nowadays & they sell them in sets of 4.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

http://www.ericksracing.com/id175.html

ITR spec pistons have been made in a number of sizes for years now.


Still, I don't think that's what he was referring too.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

I wanna say nippon was making or makes these.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Toplines!

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Eh, it doesn't matter.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Guess I was just trying to state that they are just grossly overpriced has the 81mm are like 130-150 so yuppers

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Big time. They used to be a lot cheaper.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

if your rebuilding the engine its hard to not use arp rod bolts, i mean they are like upwards of 35 bux... the biggest factor in installing them is resizing the rod but i had that done anyway for my new bearings...

if your NA then chances are your prolly dropping in some higher compression pistons so why not new bearings/arp rod bolts...

if your boosted then chances are you want to put in stronger rods/pistons basically eliminating the whole question.

i dunno, i mean theres some things to cheap out on but i just dont see the point IF your opening the bottom end anyway...

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Lots of great discussion!

I just picked up a spare ls longblock a guy owed me yesterday....and i'm thinkin about going lsv with some tt rods (what kind of forged pistons would you guys go with for EDIT: a BUDGET na build?) etc. and have a fun sorta quick dd out of it.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

for a budget NA build use stock rods arp rod bolts and jdm ITR pistons and ACL race bearings

oh and i have the RS machines 84.5mm ITR pistons, they work really good...

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

how about budget forged?

srp's? or just shell out a tad more and go with cp/wiseco?

only the srp's are budget....but i'm still asking.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

thought sleeve issues usually only happened when they're boosted. I know they siamesed the middle cylinders but how much of a problem is it when you just slap a vtec head on it?

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

whats wrong with cast? you could spend 200 bux on a set of cast type R clones and keep the stock rods or run forged for 500ish and spend another 250 on rods... hmmmm

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

i might do just that....but that wouldn't allow much room for spray. i just think, that's all.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

you never said anything about nitrous...

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

They siamesed all the cylinders, the liner is a single piece in the B20B/Z.

LS/GSR/B16 blocks have issues with sleeve reliability when revved past 9K. Admittedly it's not a big one and those cars were probably untuned and flogged on. Siamesed sleeve B20s... eh, after seeing what meticulous people like B20Pete do with B20s, it makes me wonder if those blocks aren't great budget NA blocks if you know what you're doing... unlike a lot of people.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Single piece? With N/A it doesn't seem like you'd have any issues with sleeve movement at high rpms.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Harmonics.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

So your saying the cylinders break like a wine glass?

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

The liners are as thin as 0.060" thick, they are strong but not resilient. You can make a lot of power on them, but don's subject them to harmonics or detonation.

If you are still not buying it... frankly I'd rather you thought for yourself... look at the VEMS wiki for their writeup on hos knock is detected via a KS. The resonant frequency the sensor looks for is the one that the block sings at under detonation, and that frequency is a function of the bore diameter. It all dovetails convincingly.

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Well that's great...by the time the ks picks up the frequency you could do some damage. :P

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Amplitude

Re: How about a REAL discussion about LS rod bolts?
 

Are you saying before major damage would be done, the knock would be detected because the lower amplitude (which would still be detected by the ks) is associated with less "severe" knock?