building block, need suggestions
 

aigh, i'm gonna be building a b18b block this winter, this is the first time i've messed around with internals, but, i'm not really sweating it thanks to the honda service manual that i downloade ;D i plan on doing everything right so that it will last a while. i have a bare block right now, i'm getting eagle h beams this week, and i'll prolly be ordering some je's next week, these are the definietes. now i'm wondering about bearings, seals, etc. i was looking at toga main and rod bearings and it was about 160 for the set, are these good, or would i be just as safe with factory honda bearings? also i plan on getting a new honda oem water pump, and a toga gsr oil pump. also getting a complet hona oem bottom end gasket seal kit. i'll be getting pins for the block and am getting it hot tanked and honed. does this sound like a good set up to everyone? is there anything else that you can think of that will benefit me (besides getting it sleeved ;))

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

boost or NA?

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

well, it's for boost of course, but i will prolly run it na for a while seeing as how my "car budget" will be spent up for a while after buying everything for the block. i'll be putting a b16 head on it

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

are you staying with b18b rod length and crap like that or making it a shorter stroke for higher rpm?

b18b crank? or gsr crank?

I've heard that Honda OEM Bearings are the best.

PS. Kevin. Im thinkin about doin the same thing this winter w/a b18b block, b16a obd0 head, IM, and dizzy... can u keep a price list goin? thanks.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

I'm a firm beleiver on using factory bearings. I've just seen to many problems with aftermarket ones, people not measuring oil clearences properly, to tight/to loose etc. I'd inspect the old ones real well, more than likly they are just fine and ready to go for another 60k miles. I reused my Main bearings on my built Ls/Vtec.

As far as seals, all your really going to need is a Head set (top end) along with a front/rear main seals and some silicone.

I'd suggest to sleeve it, just because I have broke 2 b-series sleeves, and it sounds like your doing alot of work, you may just want to save up an extra 1000 bucks to sleeve it ;) But a pinned B-series with forged internals tuned perfect should be safe and put down some great power.

Good luck!
Jeff

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

well, i just planned on keeping reg b18 rod length, i'm not really sure what all is involved in shortening the stroke, the block i have is completely bare, so i'll prolly use my b18a crank that i have from my hydrolocked engine. so far, the price isn't looking too high.

eagle h beams (from shadowrex)= 200
bare block= 100 :P (people are acting like b18a/b blocks are gold these days)
je pistons and rings= 430 (that's gonna hurt)
new honda water pump= 60
new gsr oil pump= 140
main and rod bearings= 120
bottom end gasket/seal kit= 55

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

I would invest for a top end seal kit. You want this to go smoothly. How informed are you on the blocks condition? Is it already machine for flat deck?

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

i already have the complete top end though with very low miles, i don't plan on tearing it down. the block hasn't had any machine work yet, i'm gonna wait until after i post it to have it honed and decked....

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

remember what happened last time u re-used a gasket? :-X

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

i won't be reusing any gaskets (this time) ::) i'll be keeping my head in tact, so all i will really need is a head gasket and valve cover gasket

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

yah thats all i really meant was HG and valve cover gasket.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

is the r/s ratio really that bad though?? maybe if i just slapped a b16 head on a b18 block with no machine work or internals, but i think it'll be fine with lighter forged pistons and rods??

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Have to post to this so i can keep note of it cause i am learning along with you..

If I remeber correctly, a lighter assembly will rev a little faster than a heavy stock one. Less mass less weight easier to move. physics stuff lol. Dont forget about the flywheel also.

I dont know about the r/s though

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

yah id say thats correct. less reciprocating mass. my a6 revs really quick with about 8lbs shaved off the stock flywheel.

Earlier in this thread i mention about shorter rods. I think I was mistaken. the stroke is actualy shortened by the crank. LS crank has longer stroke then the gsr crank. correct anynone?

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

yes the LS crank has a longer stroke due to the fact it is not going to rev so high. Well not unless..........


I think The c/r is differant on the gsr also isnt it?

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

well, if you put a gsr crank in an ls to shorten the stroke, wouldn't there be a bigger piton to valve/head clearance?

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

hrmm.. i guess youd have to get gsr pistons too ;)

i bet the LS pistons have a shorter wrist pin to top of piston height too.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

prolly, i don't really know too much about internals, stroke, c/r, etc. *yet* ;D

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

lol you're one step ahead of me in the engine knowledge kevin ;)

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

i know how to swap one, that's about it :P been doing a lot of reading though, i don't think it's gonna be as complicated as i though.........

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Honda builds there motors really tight on clearances. When I rebuilt my D15B7 I was lucky and all were "black". I bought "black" bearings from Honda and they were well within service limits even after 175,000 miles!!! I had never built a Honda motor before, only Ford so the whole color coding ---- was new to me. I later built an F22A1 using ACL bearings (Honda bearings are always on DEEP back order in my area.. I had no choice) and they're still holding up well for the new owner of the car after 3 years.

I guess the only tip I have is: for your more accurate measurements try to build your motor with all parts at the same temperature (like 69-75 degrees if possible is optimal). Allow parts to sit and achieve this temperature for 24hrs... this will yield the most accureate measurements. When all you have as a hobby builder is plastiguage (I can't afford nice micrometers needed etc) every edge you can get counts! Double check ALL bearing clearances... you never know if you got sold a wrong bearing, don't ASSUME just because one was right, the rest will be too!

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

ok.. man hybrid forum is kicking ass lately.. good info coming into it.. ok.. so.. lets say i rip my a6 out of my car. tear off the head and unbolt the rod and main bearing caps.. how do i know which bearings i already have?

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

each engine uses a certain "color" of bearing, to the best of my knowlege, it's based solely on what engine it is, and unless accessive wear has occurred, the same color should fit within spec.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

how do I know which colour is in my d16a6

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Actually, ever crank has numbers stamped into it. The number sybolizes which color your crank should use. As I know it, the number to color translation can be done by your honda dealership. There's a chart, but I've never found it. Also, there is a number stamped on each crank throw, so there's more than one number. The crank throw with "6" for example will use " " color, and the crank throw next to it may have a different number than used in the one right next to it. I'm going through all this now. ;)

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

awsome all those little tidbit things that no1 thinks are important are.. keep us posted ;)

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Mr. Frank knows alot about this ----. I look up to him!

Anyways, i bought a random set of bearings, threw them in and fired the car up and boom no oil pressure (good pump) ------- bearings where the wrong size(100% my fault). so i said ---- it and ran the car to the ground, now maybe someday a zc will go in it (hint hint JF) :-P

I will see what i can do for the color chart. I have been searching because i'm building an LS vtec for a friend.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

www.slowmotionmotorsports.com i believe they have a tech art. about honda bearings...

they are a local car club/tuning shop in my town. try a 95 civic hatchback with 406whp. and a dodge neon (fastest in ohio) ran a 12.44 (n/a). they are a quick ass team.

they do all their own wideband tuning, pretty nice guys to. go check out their articles.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

http://www.team-integra.net/sections...p?ArticleID=19

You have to sign up for the site, but it is 110% worth it. You could read every article they have there, and not waste one minute of your time. Very, very informative, great refrence, I can't rave enough about them.

-PHiZ

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Just do what i do let the machine shop do everything. ;D But im lazy and plus i scrwed up already.Dunno but the shop over here is assembling my entine bottom and installing new bearing ,seal and redoing the crank for 300. but thats me :P

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Sorry this is so ghetto (hey its HMT anyway, right?). I scanned these out of a couple service manuals I have. I would save this jpeg to your computer if you want it.. i frequently move/remove ---- on my webserver! Black or brown is where you wanna be.. optimally. Basically you buy the appropriate bearings and then plastiguage it... and 9 times out of 10 you'll be within service limits. If not, down to the next size of bearing with you! If in doubt, mic the crank.

http://dolemite.dyndns.org/albums/al...ing_sizing.jpg

http://dolemite.dyndns.org/albums/al...ng_sizing2.jpg

sorry for these being so huge, but any smaller and blind fuckers like me can't read them. I added this second one for rod bearing sizing, i realize that scan is from a V6 Honda, but same ---- applies on 4 poppers, just 2 less bearings ;) Note that on the ROD bearings, the #'s are reversed, as in the #'s are on the rod/cap and the letter is on the crank. They do that so you won't make a mistake!!!

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

That's a good chart. Nice find. Try to keep that one, I know we'll need it. ;)

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

OMG I had no idea it was so technical. What happens when you get aftermarket rods? Then how do you know what color to use? Trial and error? That kinda sucks. That's a nice chart though. That's also one fo the reasons I like boosting on stock blocks. ;D
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Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Ive never owned a set of aftermarket rods for Honda, but on my last Mustang I had a set of eagle H beams. I tried the std bearing and it was a little loose for my taste... so I then stepped down -0.010 and it was in the middle of Ford's service limit.. so I used it and had no problem. The crank had never been ground.. it was a brand new Eagle crank. I have been told Eagle's QC sometimes is lacking, so maybe thats why.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

I don't think the differance in clearance is due to the rods. I think from the factory all the cranks and/or blocks/girdles have different clearances due to the neccessary machining at the factory. That's why I believe the rods aren't taken into consideration when it comes to the bearing colors/numbers. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Is this all your doing to build up your engine ?

Id consider a good build up with this type of frame work myself

Balancing. pistons ,rods,crank, etc. get it all balanced
get the pistons and rods wieght matched

Bore and hone ( after you get the pistons better to hone each hole to each piston.

Cut the god dammned crank to a .010 undersize. Take this crank grinding routine and enjoy having a nice strength adding fillet added to the rod and main journals.

While your in there turning the Crank have it shot peened re nitride coated and micro polished.

Get somebody with good micrometers to measure everythign befreo you even beging assmbly. then backwards check with plastiguage.

For those new eagle rods. Send them to the machien shop and have the tolerance check top to bottom while there being wiegth matched and balnced.

I highly advice in Mian bearing studs. Aluminum blocks suffer from Cap walk something fierce. a cheap set of studs will save you main bearings.

If you machine shop is capable give them a spare head and have them do the final honing with a head bolted on and the block upside down in the mill. This will help keep the cylinders round.

Id highly advise agaisnt posting the block. Your just asking for trouble that way. If you do get it posted good luck.

Get a damned block guard froma reputable company sobody like JG etc thas welded in.

When the block si being bored make sure the deck height is correct, the deck is sauqre to the crank and when there boring/honing have them put the cylinder back in line with the crank journals and make sure its perpindcular as well.

and last but not least you should get the line bore on the main bearings checked. Itll help reudce fucked up clearances in the end and your main bearings will like you for it.,

thats all i can think of.

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Jesus, how much would all of that cost you?

One problem with that is finding a shop that is capable of doing it. I would imagine a shop around here would look at me like I was stupid and just tell me they did all that ---- just to shut me up. I highly doubt they would bore/hone my block with the head attached. I guess you would just have to find a good shop and a winning lottery ticket to do all of that. :-\
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Re:building block, need suggestions
 

how would you bore/hone it upside-down...i must be not visualizing it well, since i cant see how they could get it in there (dont the mains get in the way...im trying to remember)

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

Actually most good shops have TQ plates. yes you can hone the clyinder with the head on and the block upside won. the mians dont get in the way of anything except for the boring bar.

If you want this level and quality of machine work done. You should conatc VT competition engines in Flint michigan. they do excelent work !

Re:building block, need suggestions
 

---- i must have read wrong...i thought u said bore it upside down...my mistake