My slow ass DSM build up
 

The car:
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu...e6_b.sized.jpg
The retarded american hybrid turbo, to be replaced with something not so retarded (who the ---- puts a 75mm turbine wheel inside the smallest turbine housing ever?):
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu/S2010056.sized.jpg
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu/S2010065.sized.jpg
Some of the gearbox bits:
http://www.foo.is/albums/sheptrans/IMG_1247.sized.jpg
http://www.foo.is/albums/sheptrans/IMG_1238.sized.jpg
http://www.foo.is/albums/dsmgearbox/S2010048.sized.jpg
Intercooler:
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu..._001.sized.jpg
Manley rods:
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu/IMG_1317.sized.jpg
TiAL 38mm:
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu/IMG_1324.sized.jpg
Custom spec ROSS pistons, 7.6:1 compression:
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu/IMG_1574.sized.jpg
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu/IMG_1575.sized.jpg
http://www.foo.is/albums/brokenmitsu/IMG_1579.sized.jpg

Should make an efficient 400hp on pump gas when completed, don't think I wanna put any more strain than that on a shitty Mitsubishi drivetrain.
There are some things not pictured, such as the 4 spider center differential and MLS head gasket.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

7.6:1 ??? Don't know a lot about DSM's, but isn't that pretty low?

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

That's pretty low, ideal for running 30psi boost on pump fuel all day.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

lol i thought those were magazine shots for a second. You have a pretty good camera. Yeah nice car anyways. I want a gsx so bad. I already got the honda, now i just need the second most hated import car in the world lol. Good work though.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

The picture of the car is done by a friend of mine who's a photography geek. The macro pictures are done on my Canon Ixus IS850 and the camera I keep in the garage, a Samsung Digimax S201.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

as opposed to running 9:1 with 20 PSI and making the same power?

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Nice 2G. Not trying to knock your setup, but you could have easily made 400hp on a TD06-20G or T3/T4 50trim .63 A/R. All on stock internals too. Doesn't matter if its on a 6 bolt or 7 bolt 4G63. If the 7 bolt is gonna walk, nothing's gonna change it's mind. The only way I see that build useful is if you plan on taking that 2.0 over 500hp in the future.

As for the oh so overly used "shitty Mitsu drivetrain" statement, it's 90% of the time driver oriented, the other 10% is power when damage occurs. You get alot of young punks who get their hands on a DSM and think it's uber l33t to dump the clutch at 6K. Then they wonder why they are dealing with fucked up transfer cases and rear diffs.

If you need further insurance, go with a baller Shep built tranny (which it says you have in your sig).


Pretty darn low. Stock 6 bolt 4G63's in the 1G DSM's come with 7.8:1c/r stock. Alot of 1G owners use the stock 2G 8.5:1c/r pistons on the beefy 1G rods when doing mild builds, works nicely. I did this on my first 1G DSM and found much better drivability out of boost. According to the pocketlogger PDA, the bumped c/r didn't have any adverse effect on knock or timing advance with the same exact tune I used in the stock setup using the same shitty 92 pump gas. Definitly made more power with the bumped c/r too.

He on the other hand will probably hate life under 3500rpm's :3

Alcohol injection, FTFW!!!! :y

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Good ----! Kinda glad to see more dsm threads on here lately, kinda helps me out with mine seeing that the only thing I ever had was utter hatred for them lol.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

I know you _can_ push them up to that power level on stock internals and stock compression ratio. However on pump gas you lose efficiency at high boost due to retarded timing on a high compression ratio motor. Also the stock internals will happily do up to 500hp, for a limited amount of time until the rods snap and send a piston through the head, this has been tried and tested over and over.
Yes, I have what you could call a Shep stage 3 trans, with chromoly shift forks and 4 spider center diff and new 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear + intermediate shaft. Currently being assembled. I know drivetrain reliability is 90% up to the driver, I've got a history of broken gears and driveshafts in my other car but I've learned to launch in a way that both gives you better 60ft times and saves the drivetrain, it just calls for a metallic (puck) clutch which doesn't go up in smoke when slipped a bit and slipping it off the line.
As for alcohol injection, I want to drag race the car in a street car class which is pretty open except that fuel must be gasoline sold off the pump, no additives of any sort.
The difference in efficiency between a 7.6:1 engine and a 8.5:1 engine is a mere 3% in conditions where you're not knock limited (off boost). Once you get into boost pressures above 20psi the 7.6:1 engine will start making more power on pump gas. Of course, if I was building an engine to run on E85 or race gas, I would've gone with off the shelf pistons.
The engine is built for 600hp and 8000rpm (manufacturer rating of those rods), but 400 is the target to start with at least. I have some room for improvement in head work and turbocharger when 400hp becomes boring.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Any low end you lose from dropping c/r you can get back by playing with the timing. The risk vs reward of using higher compression isn't in the favor of reward in my eyes. There's far too much risk when it comes to tuning, a weird weather day, etc for me to want to run higher comp, when I can get back low end by playing with timing.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

That isnt a picture, its a work of art. Nice none the less though.


Nice project also. E85 powered?

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

OMG. STFU dude and let him do something original for a change.

Nice car and congrats on the non-Mitsu turbo.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

It's one thing to want to be original, it's another to go with something proven.

Baldur, good luck on the setup. May I recommend an ACT 2900 for ultimate ---- slippage. Pedal pressure and catch is, at least to me, identical to the 2600 (just with more holding power).

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Looks good, but that comp is kinda low.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Yea, proven. 16G OWNZ THE WORLDZZ

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

If you're content with 12's. ::)

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

12's can smoke stock GTO's

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

you stoleded the words out my mouff

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Looks sweet, I like DSMs when they are spotlessly clean and assembled with good gear.

Are you going to run that chipped trans gear?

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

A good friend of mine Joe Bucci is the fastest 16g/nitrous car in the world and it goes 9's not 12's with his FP Evo 16g(he's sponsored by fp now).We have 4 dsm shops and a pretty strong presence here in Tampa and my current laser is my 12th 1g.Good ---- and good luck with the car baldur.I need to post pics of laser once i buff it and on my quest for 13's and 100+mph traps.I'm building the car to drive it not break it. O0

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

No, that's been replaced by a new intermediate shaft from Sheptrans.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Sweet.

I just had to bust your onions because you posted up all the bling ----, and I saw a flaw.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

I was being sarcastic, cock bag. 16G's are the #1 choice of people that like to "stick with what's proven". And they go 13's, not 12's.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Yeah I don't understand the cult following the 16G has, it's a small turbo and running fast times with it in cars that have been stripped of almost everything but the steering wheel and gas pedal, then replacing the turbo every few passes because you're overspinning and grenading it doesn't really impress me.
I'm probably getting an oldschool Garrett T04e 50 trim when I have the engine and gearbox assembled, the Bullseye Power T4 has a stupidly big exhaust wheel but the turbine housing is much too small to flow any air. I'm going to try it if I get a better turbine housing, something that will accept the 74mm wheel and still have a working nozzle.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

It has a cult because it bolts on completely in a 1g and its low entry price(prices have come down).I honestly think anything bigger than a 16g makes the dsm less fun.The comment on the cars going fast with a 16g completely stripped is bullshit.Tom Noonen went low 11.4@119 with a evo 16g in a gvr4 putting down 400+ to all 4 wheels.Tell me a gvr4 is a lightweight the bitch weighs more than a 2g awd.To each his own to me there is such a thing as too fast of a daily driver which makes a car not fun to me.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Nitrous can put a 3,400lbs, K03 powered GTi into the 4's if you really want it to. The turbo will have exactly ZERO to do with that time however.

I has a cult following because the average DSMer is a mindless, ignorant idiot, nothing more. It also doesn't have a low entry price. T04E's from 50-60trims all go for $575 as opposed to an EvoIII 16G for $580. The T04E's will make far more useable power and do so with a far large safety margin. And of course the only people that say larger (i.e. REAL) turbos make the car "less fun" are the people that have never experienced one. Explain to me WHY you need full boost at 2,500rpm when you will NEVER see that part of the powerband when driving fast. I have yet to hear a DSMer give a valid explaination for that question. They just say it because everyone else does. "You need a quick spooling turbo to make the car streetable" ...why? Do you really need 30psi off idle to get to work? Do you really need to be surging the turbo at part throttle while just maintaining speed up a hill with two people in the car?


This post is 1000% correct.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

I was being sarcastic too, you ------- waste of fetus. And if you're stuck in 13's on even a small 16G, you're 1. a shitty driver, or 2. don't have proper supporting mods. I went 12.67 on my '92 TSi AWD with a ported to hell stock 14B @ 20psi (spiking to 18psi) on pump, 550cc's, 255lph, MAFT, etc...

As blue CRX stated, it's a complete bolt on to the stock 1G 14B turbo (which flows around 405cfm). A small 16G (around 500CFM) is exactly the same except for the inducer wheel (WG flapper optional). A B16G (which flows 550cfm) has an upgraded inducer and exh. wheel, 7cm exhaust housing, and 34mm WG flapper. The best part is that you sacrifice VERY little IF any spool time by upgrading to a small or Big 16G (100-200rpms MAX), but gain big power and efficiency over the 14B.

As for the grenading or "overspinning", every turbo reaches its peak efficiency sooner or later meaning a turbo is good for X amount of boost. Anything more and you're simply blowing hot air. For instance, a ported 14B turbo is good for power till 17-18psi, a ported small 16G 20-21psi, and a ported B16G around 23-24psi. Anything more, and you're simply not making any power because you've reached the max efficiency of that turbo.

Did you take into account he'll need to buy an external wg, manifold, and custom O2 housing/downpipe for the T04E? Where as he could simply port his stock 2G exhaust manifold and O2 housing and bolt a B16G on. The price is for a turbo he can't just slap on, your case for the price comparison is irrelevant.

And to me, a mindless, ignorant idiot is someone who says "get thiz turbo, it makes maad powa ova this turbo so that turbo sux". Take into account people have different needs/wants. Maybe he wants something quick spooling for drivability because it's his daily driver, yet still able to, and is totally content running 12's.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

I thought that first pictures was straight up CGI.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Few questions:

- 12.67 at what MPH?

- How do you set 20psi but "spike" 18psi?

- Why were you running a MAF-T: 1. at all 2. on a setup making that little power ?

- Since when do 16g's come with 34mm wastegate flappers? That's an aftermarket upgrade option for like $200

- What relevance does CFM have on a turbo car?

- Since when is efficiency related only to boost?

- Since when does turbine housing porting have anything to do with compressor efficiency?

- Since when is a B16G efficient at all, let alone to 24psi on a 2.0L?

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

- 12.67 @ 107 with a 1.7 60'

- Stock wastegate flapper, unported wastegate passage. Caused boost to spike to a level, then drop off a psi or two as rmps go up. That be boost spike, yo.

- I needed some form of tuning adjustability for the 550cc's, right? Plus whynot? The 3" GM MAF sensor itself is a mod, it outflows the 1G MAS quite a bit. Easier to tune than an SAFC (even though not quite as acurate), no hack job required, option to go blow-through, etc... Need I go on? Power level doesn't matter to me as of why I got it, I got the MAFT for tuning and for improvement under driving condition over the 1G MAS along with the flow factor over the 1G MAS. Plus MAFT's go a long way, and I knew over time that the longer I had that DSM, the more I'd want to eventually upgrade.

- I don't believe it costs that much to add the 34mm WG option. I believe the Evo III B16G comes with a 34mm stock, but I could be wrong.

- You tell me why cfm and airflow isn't relevant. Are compressor maps irrelevant too?

- I didn't say that, I did however mention efficient spool up.

- Again, I never said it effected compressor efficiency. Porting smooths cast flaws and improves airflow by enlarging ports. Porting also helps with boost spike and boost creep in relation to porting of the WG port of the exhaust housing (when running an internal gate).

- Full boost by 3200rpms, full bolt on, yet can hold 24psi. What's not efficient about it? Look, and I mean LOOK for times of maxed out B16G powered cars with FULL supporting mods (and no spray or alcohol injection). I guarantee they arent running 13's like you say they are.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

MAFT cars run like ----. and AFC's arent hard to tune with.

CFM's are irrelevant because a 16G is probably flowing 550 CFM @ 2 psi. yes thats right boost pressure and CFM are irrelevant to each other.

full boost by 3200? keep dreaming. he did have an E316G on his car at one point so he is speaking from experience. the car was pretty lame with a 16g on it. the 50 trim thats on it now is a different story.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

- That's not bad

- So you mean you spiked 20psi and held 18psi, not the other way around

- MAF-T "tuning" is on par with an FMU and the sensor itself is horribly inaccurate. Not my cup of tea, but if it worked, it worked.

- No, it doesn't come with one. And the option is around $100-150

- CFM is not relevant, lbs/min is. This is where many 16g diciples are mislead.

- You didn't? - You didn't? - Peak efficiency on a B16G is 71%. Where most people are operating them is in the <65% range. That's MISERABLE for any turbo. It's a shitty turbo, plain and simple. The small and Evo are good turbos for <300hp though. I was also exaggerating with the 13's, although many people around here are stuck with that.

Proof that 16g's suck ass: http://www.redtube.com/2393
:8

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

1. Heard stories of MAFT cars running shitty, never had problems with mine unless I tried driving it when it was completely cold and unwarmed up. Never said the AFC was "hard" to tune, the MAFT is easier yet less acurate.

2. Got me there. :1

3. Maybe I was over exagerating. 3200 is pretty much 14B territory. 3400rpms is more like it. Yet I don't know why he had problems making decent power and times with a B16G. There are dozens of people who have pulled off some remarkable times with this turbo with a very reasonable amount of money invested.

And I agree, 50 Trizzle > B16G

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

I saw 20psi by 3,400rpm with zero exhaust leaks on the Evo 16g. I now see 26psi at 3,600rpm with massive exhaust leaks on the T04E with a stage 3 and .63 a/r hot side.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

- Thanks 8)

- Yes, I spiked not crept.

- I don't think it's nearly as bad as an FMU, but I agree, it's not the most acurate. For instance you can tune to a fine percentage between 16 adjustment points with an SAFC2, with a MAFT I believe is 5% for every setting which has 6 +/- if I remember right.

- I stand corrected. Worthy mod for someone set on an internal gate.

- Stood corrected on CoreyR's post.

- I still stand by the fact that that's just one seperate case of a shitty 16G setup. Me personally, I used to want to go that route back in the day. However, better bang-for-the-buck ---- comes out every year. But still, I've seen good times put down using a B16G. To each their own. :6

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

:o

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

The 16G is a decent turbo for 300bhp. That is the power level it's designed to run efficiently, and does quite well in the group N rally cars with a 34mm restrictor. If you want more power then there are some more efficient choices available.
MAF translators and AFCs both suck because they cannot adjust the spark timing or part throttle fuelling independant of full throttle fuelling.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

My DSMlink ECU is on it's way here tomorrow. I'm getting pumped thinking about it.

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

All that stuff on the b16g with the 7cm^2 hotside is all well and good, but what about the tdo5hr/16g6c with the 10.5cm^2 hot side? I've been trying to find some flow numbers on this sucker and can't seem to come across any. Split tang and reverse rotation sucks ass though, and it looks like either an FP evo-green or a gt30 will be in my future. :P

Re: My slow ass DSM build up
 

Quoted for truth.

All the "small-shaft" MHI turbos suck. They arent anything I would like to consider reliable, and more or less everything AWDstylez said about them is true. Exhaust housing is piss poor for a turbo of this day and age, and is far inferior to the generic t3 design.

Its wasteful to build a respectible "drag" car with one, unless your dad is one of the engineers who helped design the articulated trucks for CAT, in which case MHI turbos are basically free........