FMIC Flow ratings
03-26-2007, 01:32 AM
#11
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
Originally Posted by W O T
Thats a poor *** tube and fin
Horrible comparisn
Horrible comparisn
There was a nifty IC core thread on HT where Full-Rice Geoff got owned a few years back, he took the position than the bar/plate high cfm cores were superior due to flow, and was demonstrated to be completely wrong, to the tune of 40-60 deg F in the 500 whp range.
03-26-2007, 08:58 AM
#12
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 545
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
You have a link to that said thread? I'm very curious. Like I said, over on the mitsubishi side of the world, bar and plate are considered far superior, and most of the larger compaines making the high HP cores for us all utilized bar and plate cores. So I'm curious to here from the other side.
Also, do you have any links to some of the more decent tube & fins like what you said you have?
Also, do you have any links to some of the more decent tube & fins like what you said you have?
03-26-2007, 09:38 AM
#13
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 545
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
Here's an article written by a local shop owner with a fairly high powered Stealth (750hp). This kind of sums up how the Mitsubishi world, and myself, views this whole debate between which are better or worse. Like I said, a majority of the high powered Mitsu's all run bar & plates. But if you have some links to some good info that contradicts some of this, I'd love to read up because I'm always up to learn a thing or two.
Tube and Fin cores allow air to pass through them easier. This allows for a cooler charge to make it to the radiator (in a fmic application) which will help aid in the prevention of overheating. The reason they do so, is due to design. Where-in a bar and plate (and a plate-tube and fin core) are more squarish, the tube and fin core almost 'points' outwards, thus piercing the air easier.
A tube and fin core makes a 'V' while the bar and plate make an '[]' shape and the plate-tube and fin makes a 'W' shape. Therefore they rank in order.
1) tube and fin
2) plate-tube and fin
3) bar and plate.
This is in the c/d category as well as cooling running engine factor. Granted how the nose of the car is shaped will change the efficiency and mounting method of the intercooler and radiator greatly. The more direct of a path airflow has to the intercooler, the greater the efficiency. To thick of a core can sometimes 'trap' air from getting through it, as well as to drastic of a mounting angle. These problems can be overcome by allowing for more surface area in a trade off of thickness.
Next section...how the air moves through the intercooler.
The faster the air can get through the intercooler core the better. This pretty much sums up 'pressure drop'. When the air has a hard time dividing up through the runners, pressure drop goes up 10 fold. Plate-tube and fin cores are the best in this situation. They allow the air only once choice, that is to split and enter the core. This is usually based on the manfacture, but mostly the plate-tube and fine cores result in the least amount of pressure drop. Second in this category is the bar and plate. They sometimes make the air do a 90 degee split then enter the tubes, but it usually works out. Lastly the tube and fins are the worst. Air usually has to do a 180 when it doesn't grab a tube right away, bounce back against the endtank, and go back at the tube again. Not the greatest idea when it domes to pressure drop. Manafacture methods can sway these results on way of the other, but this is in general.
So.. when it comes to pressure drop.. Plate-tube and fin #1, followed by bar and plate, then tube and fin in a distant third.
Next we actually talk about cooling.
Bar and plate are by far the best at cooling an air charge. They displace more heat then the other two examples widly available. A few changes within the manafacture method will change the outcome, but overall bar and plate is better at getting rid of heat. A properly made tube and fin core can beat out a plate-tube and fin core as well as a bar and plate, but overall most manafactures don't construct them correctly and when they are, the usually cost quite a bit.
Actually I am getting tired of posting so i'll sum it up.
There is no better one. It really comes down to a multitude of options. Bar and plate cores are good overall if constructed properly. Granted they are the most prone to leaks, if the endtanks aren't attached correctly, but overall they are better. Plate-tube and fins are also awesome cores. Tube and fins can be the best, but usually aren't due to the expense of making them correctly.
I didn't even get into the other very very important aspects of intercooling, like endtank design, fin design and shape (louved vs straight...spacing, amount of fins etc)..piping sizes, coupler use..bend radius's..etc.
Most of the time the only hamper on awesome intercooling is money. That is of course if you don't go insane and use to large of an intercooler.
That being said, a few manafactures out there stand out. Also try to find out of the 'pressure drop' advertised is static or dynamic. Static is best defined as 'flow bench aquired' pressure drop numbers where dynamic actually is closer to real life and takes into effect the entire design of the intercooler, from basis (tube and fin vs bar and plate), to fins..etc..
That being said, here are a few manafactures and what I think of them..
Spearco intecoolers.
They are widely available and are actually good stuff. They have realitivly low pressure drop numbers, have a wide range of cores available and in general are a great option.
Btw they are a high efficent pierce fine design on the inside and out. This results in awesome efficiency in the air charge department as well as low pressure drop.
PTE use a bar and plate style core. they are widely available, very economic, and when paired with good endtanks can flow very well. There core choices aren't as vast as spearco, but they do hold there own.
Those are a few of the companies I have done research into, google does wonders, so does being on ALOT of boards.
other companies worth mentioning:
ARE cooling- aluminum radiator and engineering. Australia based company. From what I have gathered, have awesome intercooling making functions but aren't the most economical choise. They can pretty much custom make any core you need, and are a good choice for the 'budgetless' project.
ARE cooling
The greddy cores are also widely used, and I"ll let others chime in on those, as I have very limited research into them as well as experience.
Also this information only applies to air/air applications, air/water is a completly different ball game where you can get over 100% efficiency if you do it right.
Hope it helps, otherwise enjoy the ramble.
Good day to all.
Tube and Fin cores allow air to pass through them easier. This allows for a cooler charge to make it to the radiator (in a fmic application) which will help aid in the prevention of overheating. The reason they do so, is due to design. Where-in a bar and plate (and a plate-tube and fin core) are more squarish, the tube and fin core almost 'points' outwards, thus piercing the air easier.
A tube and fin core makes a 'V' while the bar and plate make an '[]' shape and the plate-tube and fin makes a 'W' shape. Therefore they rank in order.
1) tube and fin
2) plate-tube and fin
3) bar and plate.
This is in the c/d category as well as cooling running engine factor. Granted how the nose of the car is shaped will change the efficiency and mounting method of the intercooler and radiator greatly. The more direct of a path airflow has to the intercooler, the greater the efficiency. To thick of a core can sometimes 'trap' air from getting through it, as well as to drastic of a mounting angle. These problems can be overcome by allowing for more surface area in a trade off of thickness.
Next section...how the air moves through the intercooler.
The faster the air can get through the intercooler core the better. This pretty much sums up 'pressure drop'. When the air has a hard time dividing up through the runners, pressure drop goes up 10 fold. Plate-tube and fin cores are the best in this situation. They allow the air only once choice, that is to split and enter the core. This is usually based on the manfacture, but mostly the plate-tube and fine cores result in the least amount of pressure drop. Second in this category is the bar and plate. They sometimes make the air do a 90 degee split then enter the tubes, but it usually works out. Lastly the tube and fins are the worst. Air usually has to do a 180 when it doesn't grab a tube right away, bounce back against the endtank, and go back at the tube again. Not the greatest idea when it domes to pressure drop. Manafacture methods can sway these results on way of the other, but this is in general.
So.. when it comes to pressure drop.. Plate-tube and fin #1, followed by bar and plate, then tube and fin in a distant third.
Next we actually talk about cooling.
Bar and plate are by far the best at cooling an air charge. They displace more heat then the other two examples widly available. A few changes within the manafacture method will change the outcome, but overall bar and plate is better at getting rid of heat. A properly made tube and fin core can beat out a plate-tube and fin core as well as a bar and plate, but overall most manafactures don't construct them correctly and when they are, the usually cost quite a bit.
Actually I am getting tired of posting so i'll sum it up.
There is no better one. It really comes down to a multitude of options. Bar and plate cores are good overall if constructed properly. Granted they are the most prone to leaks, if the endtanks aren't attached correctly, but overall they are better. Plate-tube and fins are also awesome cores. Tube and fins can be the best, but usually aren't due to the expense of making them correctly.
I didn't even get into the other very very important aspects of intercooling, like endtank design, fin design and shape (louved vs straight...spacing, amount of fins etc)..piping sizes, coupler use..bend radius's..etc.
Most of the time the only hamper on awesome intercooling is money. That is of course if you don't go insane and use to large of an intercooler.
That being said, a few manafactures out there stand out. Also try to find out of the 'pressure drop' advertised is static or dynamic. Static is best defined as 'flow bench aquired' pressure drop numbers where dynamic actually is closer to real life and takes into effect the entire design of the intercooler, from basis (tube and fin vs bar and plate), to fins..etc..
That being said, here are a few manafactures and what I think of them..
Spearco intecoolers.
They are widely available and are actually good stuff. They have realitivly low pressure drop numbers, have a wide range of cores available and in general are a great option.
Btw they are a high efficent pierce fine design on the inside and out. This results in awesome efficiency in the air charge department as well as low pressure drop.
PTE use a bar and plate style core. they are widely available, very economic, and when paired with good endtanks can flow very well. There core choices aren't as vast as spearco, but they do hold there own.
Those are a few of the companies I have done research into, google does wonders, so does being on ALOT of boards.
other companies worth mentioning:
ARE cooling- aluminum radiator and engineering. Australia based company. From what I have gathered, have awesome intercooling making functions but aren't the most economical choise. They can pretty much custom make any core you need, and are a good choice for the 'budgetless' project.
ARE cooling
The greddy cores are also widely used, and I"ll let others chime in on those, as I have very limited research into them as well as experience.
Also this information only applies to air/air applications, air/water is a completly different ball game where you can get over 100% efficiency if you do it right.
Hope it helps, otherwise enjoy the ramble.
Good day to all.
03-26-2007, 10:38 AM
#14
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
Originally Posted by ju-on
You have a link to that said thread? I'm very curious. Like I said, over on the mitsubishi side of the world, bar and plate are considered far superior, and most of the larger compaines making the high HP cores for us all utilized bar and plate cores. So I'm curious to here from the other side.
Also, do you have any links to some of the more decent tube & fins like what you said you have?
Also, do you have any links to some of the more decent tube & fins like what you said you have?
Seriously, I haven't seen any tube/fin cores of the sort you showed in that picture, I'm thinking some of the good OEM style units from the 80's that have a lot of internal fins vs some of the early bar/plate Spearco units and eGay CDM units that were spacious and offered little restriction. Maybe technology has flip flopped, the bar plates had a lot more passage area that could be filled with turbulators, after all.
Oh, for what it's worth? I got to hang out with Bill Hendren, who builds a lot of top notch big power ----, last Thursday. Mostly 10.5" and 12.5" Outlaw cars, big power drag stuff, insane dirt track monsters, etc. Bill is a wise old man, and I dunno if he's free with information like that with everyone who comes along or just bright 4 cylinder boys who couldn't get a V8 guy's car to tune and therefore aren't competition, but he was telling me that for a particular SB2 with a particular setup aka your mileage may vary but it's a good rule of thumb the sweet spot for IATs is 80-85 degrees F. Anything below that kills off power worse than super high IATs. Fuel atomization, I suppose.
03-26-2007, 10:57 AM
#15
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
for a particular SB2 with a particular setup aka your mileage may vary but it's a good rule of thumb the sweet spot for IATs is 80-85 degrees F. Anything below that kills off power worse than super high IATs. Fuel atomization, I suppose.
03-26-2007, 01:25 PM
#16
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 545
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
I can probably dig it up, it was 14-17 pages long and freaking hilarious in places if you knew the fevered egos involved. I was really going to provoke a reaction because I didn't feel like searching for the damn thing, and now you've gone and been all reasonable and forced me into it. Damn you.
Seriously, I haven't seen any tube/fin cores of the sort you showed in that picture, I'm thinking some of the good OEM style units from the 80's that have a lot of internal fins vs some of the early bar/plate Spearco units and eGay CDM units that were spacious and offered little restriction. Maybe technology has flip flopped, the bar plates had a lot more passage area that could be filled with turbulators, after all.
Oh, for what it's worth? I got to hang out with Bill Hendren, who builds a lot of top notch big power ----, last Thursday. Mostly 10.5" and 12.5" Outlaw cars, big power drag stuff, insane dirt track monsters, etc. Bill is a wise old man, and I dunno if he's free with information like that with everyone who comes along or just bright 4 cylinder boys who couldn't get a V8 guy's car to tune and therefore aren't competition, but he was telling me that for a particular SB2 with a particular setup aka your mileage may vary but it's a good rule of thumb the sweet spot for IATs is 80-85 degrees F. Anything below that kills off power worse than super high IATs. Fuel atomization, I suppose.
Seriously, I haven't seen any tube/fin cores of the sort you showed in that picture, I'm thinking some of the good OEM style units from the 80's that have a lot of internal fins vs some of the early bar/plate Spearco units and eGay CDM units that were spacious and offered little restriction. Maybe technology has flip flopped, the bar plates had a lot more passage area that could be filled with turbulators, after all.
Oh, for what it's worth? I got to hang out with Bill Hendren, who builds a lot of top notch big power ----, last Thursday. Mostly 10.5" and 12.5" Outlaw cars, big power drag stuff, insane dirt track monsters, etc. Bill is a wise old man, and I dunno if he's free with information like that with everyone who comes along or just bright 4 cylinder boys who couldn't get a V8 guy's car to tune and therefore aren't competition, but he was telling me that for a particular SB2 with a particular setup aka your mileage may vary but it's a good rule of thumb the sweet spot for IATs is 80-85 degrees F. Anything below that kills off power worse than super high IATs. Fuel atomization, I suppose.
And the main tube & fins I've seen around are about as bad as the one I linked to, and probably is the main reason I do not prefer them. either no turbulators, or a single row, perfectly alligned behind one another. I wish I would have looked in Austin's CCA core to see what his looks like, ah well. After searching a little though, I did find some nicer looking internally finned Greddy cores that looked fairly decent, with a pretty dense amount of internal fins. I've just never seen one like that in person. I guess in the end, it's probably just important to make sure the core you have has decent internal turbulators, whether it be in a bar & plate, or tube & fin design. And if you can look in one end tank and out the other pretty clearly, then it's probably safe to say it's cooling properties are going to be a bit lacking.
03-26-2007, 01:41 PM
#17
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
It had "Precision" as one of the words in the topic, and was in the Farced Induction Forum of HT. Full-Rice Geoff and a couple others were participants, you might be able to find it based on those search terms.
I have to go to work now, if you haven't turned it up I'll give it a crank tonight when I'm off. If you're going to be so goddamn reasonable we might as well have a tech thread on the subject... *exasperated sigh*
Are you 100% sure you wouldn't rather be called out on owning a DSM?
I have to go to work now, if you haven't turned it up I'll give it a crank tonight when I'm off. If you're going to be so goddamn reasonable we might as well have a tech thread on the subject... *exasperated sigh*
Are you 100% sure you wouldn't rather be called out on owning a DSM?
03-26-2007, 02:32 PM
#18
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 545
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
Hey, the DSM is running well, and is now setup and ready to start running the e85 rocket fuel, so if anyone wants to call it out, she's 99% ready! 
It'll be 100% ready once the new tranny is in, but I can deal with a shitty 2nd gear for the time being.
The Colt on the other hand, it's still in pieces.
It'll be 100% ready once the new tranny is in, but I can deal with a shitty 2nd gear for the time being.The Colt on the other hand, it's still in pieces.
03-29-2007, 08:02 AM
#19
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 545
Re: FMIC Flow ratings
I just took a gander into my Evo8 intercooler that I'm putting on the colt, and there are zero internal turblators that I can see. The way the end tank is, you have to kind of look at an angle, but looks like just straight tubes from what I can see. These intercoolers seem to be doing semi decent though, as a local evo made 400 AWHP on a dyno dynamics with the stock FMIC.
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