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Z6 Turbo build Questions
OK I have been reading and studying up on my build. I think I have more questions now than I did before I started. I am only lookin for about 325-350whp and it to be a very dependable DD. I have new OEM parts from Honda like water pump and timing belt.
First I'll post my mods/parts list z6 stock bore block w/z6 head JE/SRP 9.0:1 Pistons w/ JE rings 75mm Eagle H beam rods Stock Crank ACL Race bearings Air Research t3 50 trim Edelbrock cast turbo mani Custom 2.5" turbo back Cometic 5 layer HG Unorthodox under-drive pulley DSM 510cc inj Honda resistor box Wally 190 lph (had brand new one layin around) FMIC Greddy BOV MBC Chipped p28 tuned with Crome Innovate LC-1 Wideband Autometer Boost gauge Innovate auto timer(still have to order) Xenocron 3 Bar map(still have to order) or GM 3bar map 2.5" IC pipe ARP Head studs(have to order) My questions are about cam, head pnp, intake mani, throttle body, oil pump, and catch can/black pcv box. Cam: Do I need to upgrade my cam with what I have now? I dont have the cash for a new cam right now. Was wondering if I would be fine with my stock cam til I can get a cam and cam gear later on down the road. Head Port and Polish(PnP): I have been looking into doing a DIY PnP on my head. I have the knowledge and skill to do it just dont know about benefits with my goals. Intake Mani: I'm lookin into the y8 mani. I keep gettin mixed influences on if I should run it or not. Some people say yes others say no. I have read only good for boosted app like I'm doin and have read not good for boosted setups. I have a $200 credit at a local salvage yard and can get one of these for like $25 of that credit. Should I run one? Throttle Body: I have also been looking into a B or H series TB. I know the B series uses a map like the D series so the Xenocron map will work fine with it, and the H series uses a remote mount map so the GM unit will work there. Other than map location is there a benefit of one over the other? Oil pump: I have 2 questions here. First should i just replace or pull it apart and check spcs? Second should I port it or not? I have a -3AN oil line for my turbo with a -10AN drain. Somethings I have read say mic it and check tolerances if its in specs just leave it alone and run it, and if they are out just rebuild it. As far as porting it i have read would be good to have higher volume but dont need higher pressure. Catch Can /PCV black box: I was also thinking about removing my black box. Its leakin oil. Was goin to go with a Catch can in place of it. How do i plug the block, and whats the best way to do the PCV system? I have read with a turbo setup its best to remove the PCV system and use only a catch can. Whats the thoughts on this? Please don't flame and just say search. I have searched and thats what lead me to ask the questions I'm askin. Any advise is thanked in advanced. I figured it would be best to just ask all in one thread rather than wasting space and doing it in multiple posts. Also one last thing. I just found out yesterday one of my stones on my cylinder hone is cracked. Is it still ok to use or do I need to get another one? What about Copper HG sprayy? Should I spray the Cometic HG with it? |
First off, that turbo (T3-50 trim) is not going to support the kind of power you want. See the following compressor map for your engine @ 350hp and calculated boost requirement of 28psi.
http://www.***************/turbocalc...&product_id=77 Even a t3 60 trim won't do it. For that kind of flow, you need something substantially larger. A T04E- 50 trim would work: http://www.***************/turbocalc...&product_id=58 And a Garrett GT3267 would work, but not as well. http://www.***************/turbocalc...&product_id=38 To get that kind of power from such a small engine requires a turbo that can support that kind of airflow. The problem with a larger turbo on a smaller engine is that it won't build boost until the upper 2/3's of the rpm range, making it basically useless on the street. Honestly if you want to good street setup, use the t3-50 trim to make 250hp and you'll have a very good/wide power band. It'll build boost quick and hold it to 7000rpm easy. Anything over 250hp with fwd is useless on the street. With the 350hp setup, your car will be gutless and sluggish down low out side boost most of the time with daily driving. My two cents. This last link is the T3-50 trim on the d16 at 250hp @ est. 17psi boost required. A MUCH better setup imo. http://www.***************/turbocalc...&product_id=77 |
^Damn, it won't let me post links to those compressor maps....
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See below in red.
Originally Posted by WORPeclipse
(Post 1304647)
OK I have been reading and studying up on my build. I think I have more questions now than I did before I started. I am only lookin for about 325-350whp and it to be a very dependable DD. I have new OEM parts from Honda like water pump and timing belt.
-350whp and DD does not go well together due to the turbo required to make that kind of power on an engine like this. Not impossible, just not very practical. First I'll post my mods/parts list z6 stock bore block w/z6 head JE/SRP 9.0:1 Pistons w/ JE rings 75mm Eagle H beam rods Stock Crank ACL Race bearings Air Research t3 50 trim -Need a bigger turbo. This one won't cut it. Not even close. Edelbrock cast turbo mani Custom 2.5" turbo back Cometic 5 layer HG Unorthodox under-drive pulley DSM 510cc inj Honda resistor box Wally 190 lph (had brand new one layin around) FMIC Greddy BOV MBC Chipped p28 tuned with Crome Innovate LC-1 Wideband Autometer Boost gauge Innovate auto timer(still have to order) Xenocron 3 Bar map(still have to order) or GM 3bar map 2.5" IC pipe ARP Head studs(have to order) My questions are about cam, head pnp, intake mani, throttle body, oil pump, and catch can/black pcv box. Cam: Do I need to upgrade my cam with what I have now? I dont have the cash for a new cam right now. Was wondering if I would be fine with my stock cam til I can get a cam and cam gear later on down the road. -No, you don't need to change the cam. The stock cam is fine for boost. If you do change the cam, make sure it's a cam specifically designed for forced induction. Most aftermarket cams are designed for NA applications and have more over-lap which is not desireable for forced induction applications. Head Port and Polish(PnP): I have been looking into doing a DIY PnP on my head. I have the knowledge and skill to do it just dont know about benefits with my goals. -This is not necessary with forced induction. It won't harm it, but won't help much either. Not worth the time and effort imo. Intake Mani: I'm lookin into the y8 mani. I keep gettin mixed influences on if I should run it or not. Some people say yes others say no. I have read only good for boosted app like I'm doin and have read not good for boosted setups. I have a $200 credit at a local salvage yard and can get one of these for like $25 of that credit. Should I run one? -Z6 or Y8 manifold will do fine. Choice is yours. Throttle Body: I have also been looking into a B or H series TB. I know the B series uses a map like the D series so the Xenocron map will work fine with it, and the H series uses a remote mount map so the GM unit will work there. Other than map location is there a benefit of one over the other? -You setup could benefit from a larger TB for better flow. Either MAP sensor style will work. Oil pump: I have 2 questions here. First should i just replace or pull it apart and check spcs? Second should I port it or not? I have a -3AN oil line for my turbo with a -10AN drain. Somethings I have read say mic it and check tolerances if its in specs just leave it alone and run it, and if they are out just rebuild it. As far as porting it i have read would be good to have higher volume but dont need higher pressure. -Turbos only need a fairly low pressure (5-25psi) feeding them. So I wouldn't worry about your oil pressure/pump. As long as it's in good condition. Catch Can /PCV black box: I was also thinking about removing my black box. Its leakin oil. Was goin to go with a Catch can in place of it. How do i plug the block, and whats the best way to do the PCV system? I have read with a turbo setup its best to remove the PCV system and use only a catch can. Whats the thoughts on this? -Yes, remove the PCV and run a remote catch can. Please don't flame and just say search. I have searched and thats what lead me to ask the questions I'm askin. Any advise is thanked in advanced. I figured it would be best to just ask all in one thread rather than wasting space and doing it in multiple posts. Also one last thing. I just found out yesterday one of my stones on my cylinder hone is cracked. Is it still ok to use or do I need to get another one? -Not sure about this... What about Copper HG sprayy? Should I spray the Cometic HG with it? -Never heard of doing this before... |
The setup I was runnin was makin over 200 at 10psi on a DSM t25 and stock motor. The map I was runnin the guy dynoed 235whp with exact same mods. I wont say i was at that cause I never had it dynoed. So your sayin with droppin .2on my comp I'm goin to have to up my boost 7psi to get 15 more hp. Somthin isn't right there.
The DSM guys copper spray their gaskets and it seems to help them alot and I'm not goin to push the boost with this that I am from my Holset on my stroked DSM. Stones for my hone are cheap enough I'm just goin to replace them. I can't mem right off but it may be a 57 trim t3. From what your sayin it wont make a diff anyways. I will just check my pump to make sure its within specs. I have a buddy here that has a 409whp DD boosted Civic coupe. He was making this with a z6 and had no probs drivin it around at all. Will I benefit from the y8 mani? Whats the best way to plug the hole in the block from the black box? I talked to the guy from Delta Cams today and told him I was wantin one for a turbo app. He said no prob. |
Originally Posted by WORPeclipse
(Post 1304671)
The setup I was runnin was makin over 200 at 10psi on a DSM t25 and stock motor. The map I was runnin the guy dynoed 235whp with exact same mods. I wont say i was at that cause I never had it dynoed. So your sayin with droppin .2on my comp I'm goin to have to up my boost 7psi to get 15 more hp. Somthin isn't right there.
The DSM guys copper spray their gaskets and it seems to help them alot and I'm not goin to push the boost with this that I am from my Holset on my stroked DSM. Stones for my hone are cheap enough I'm just goin to replace them. I can't mem right off but it may be a 57 trim t3. From what your sayin it wont make a diff anyways. I will just check my pump to make sure its within specs. I have a buddy here that has a 409whp DD boosted Civic coupe. He was making this with a z6 and had no probs drivin it around at all. Will I benefit from the y8 mani? Whats the best way to plug the hole in the block from the black box? I talked to the guy from Delta Cams today and told him I was wantin one for a turbo app. He said no prob. The numbers will vary to a degree, but given an rpm, engine displacement and power output, a specific amount of airflow is required to make a certain amount of power. It's simple math and thermodynamics/physics. For a specific engine with X displacement to make X hp at X rpm will require a certain about of airflow which will require a certain amount of boost. There are things that will effect boost requirement like compression ratio, head, intake and exhaust manifold design as well as target AFR. But generally you can make a fairly accurate assumption/calculation based on displacement, rpm and power output. I bet your buddys 409whp civic didn't make any useful boost until at least 4500-5000rpm. I never said it wasn't do-able or drivable, just not practical. No power below 4500rpm on the street sucks. And 409whp through the front wheels is useless, especially through the first 3 gears. What's the point? If it's a drag car, then fine. But for the street, it just a waste. |
It was the stock z6. I cant mem where is boost is. I was thinkin closer to 4000. They guy I'm gettin the turbo from said it was rated at 325-350. Idk I may have the specs wrong. But like you sais the turbo rating can vary from application to application.
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200hp from a 1.6L engine would require approximately 10-11psi boost. So that's right on the money.
For that other guy to be making 235 with the same boost and same engine, I'd be a little skepical. 235hp should require closer to 15psi boost and 250hp should require about 17psi for a 1.6L. (give or take) |
he showed dyno sheets. we where using the exact same tune and mod list. But I know from vehicle to vehicle it can vary. Thats why I cant say i was putting down 235whp but I do know it was over 200. No it wasnt dyno provin on my side. Once the new build is done i will take it to a dyno.
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350 whp is completely do-able with your proposed setup... It will take a good tuner to get it ther but should not be difficult
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^Indeed, but just not with a t3-50 trim... ;)
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I was wrong the turbo is a Garrett model TB0322 60trim .60 ar comp .63 compressor. It is from a early T-bird.
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Couldn't find much info on the TB0322 other than it was found on the 2.3L 4cylinder engine in the t-bird and stang. Couldn't find any compressor maps either...
Apparently they are only good for about 325hp, so this turbo still isn't going to get you to 350... need to go bigger. :P |
Anywhere between 300 to 350 works for me. It is a DD. Right in the middle at 325 would be nice.
I dont have the rest of the numbers off it yet. Just those and it got me the basic specs to it. Once it gets here I will be puttin new bearings and seals in it. |
Ive seen Mitsu' 14bs go over 375 on the dyno and they are only rated to 300... Im not saying they will last very long at that level but, they can be pushed to that point... That being said, His turbo setup should be fine... The majority of it is in the tune and how close to the ragged edge he wants to run... Safely, he should be fine to his HP goals... The old turbo maps for his turbo either aren't available or easily found. But there are 2.3ltr engines built using nothing more than the stock turbo and making over 400... How long they lasted is well... debatable at best... the VE for the 1.6ltr d series at 9:1 compression and at basically sea level will help his cause... I still stand behind what I said earlier... With his setup he can potentially hit his HP goals... Safely... The fact that his turbo is .60 A/R cold and .63 A/R hotside puts it in the range of the super 60's capabilities and there are TONS of cars over 350whp with that setup... Yet they also are only rated to 325whp...
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The best you could safely get out of this turbo would probably be no more than 300hp. When you're near the edge of a turbo's capability, it's operating much less efficiently. Because if this, the air coming out of the turbo, (though it may be enough volume flow to run the numbers on the dyno), is much hotter, and that isn't good for power, reliability or the internals.
Looking at the compressor map for a similar turbo to the TB0322, at 300hp you'd be at approx 74% efficiency from about 4500rpm to 6500rpm which is pretty good. As a general rule of thumb, you don't want to drop much below 70% efficiency since below that point the air heats up substantially. So that turbo could work well in providing you with enough air efficiently to make 300hp with your setup. The best thing for reliability and dependability is to run a turbo at or as close to it's peak efficiency range for as long as possible. This ensures cooler/denser air coming into the engine which will allow you to be able to run more timing etc.., all which helps contribute to make more hp, safely. |
MPR... I will agree that the .42A/R cold .48 A/R hot side "50" trim turbo from Garret would only be good up to about 250whp at best... It would however have been a great midrange street turbo with spool up practically just off idle (ok 17-1800rpm range) and been quite fun from stop light to stop light... Heaven forbid he really try to push it on the freeway... It would have been gasping for air above 6k... 28lbs/min at 17psi in the 68% efficiency range would not be a good combination without a dam good intercooler or alot of extra fuel and retarded timing in the -3* per lb/boost just to keep from pre-detonation... Kinda defeats the purpose of trying to push the little turbo...
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My personal choice for this same HP goal for my Del Sol is using the typical Vitara build (but bored to 76mm due to a previous 75.5mm build with oiling issues) and a t3/to4e 50 trim... It will be slightly laggy but should spool up around 34 -3600 rpm and pull to redline... That being said, I have alot of work to do for traction issues below 3rd gear... Fortunately I actually know how to "Drive" a car instead of just slamming the gas to the floor and hanging on as so many of the younger generation tend to do... They just dont realize that the throttle is not an on/off switch... I have tentatively named them "togglers"... LOL... Either way, the lower HP car can actually be faster because of the traction issues with FWD...
To the OP... Good luck with your build... Take care of it and enjoy it and keep up good maintenance and it will last you for quite sometime... Anythings less than that and we will be reading about your next build very soon... |
Originally Posted by motoxman
(Post 1304707)
Ive seen Mitsu' 14bs go over 375 on the dyno and they are only rated to 300... Im not saying they will last very long at that level but, they can be pushed to that point... That being said, His turbo setup should be fine... The majority of it is in the tune and how close to the ragged edge he wants to run... Safely, he should be fine to his HP goals... The old turbo maps for his turbo either aren't available or easily found. But there are 2.3ltr engines built using nothing more than the stock turbo and making over 400... How long they lasted is well... debatable at best... the VE for the 1.6ltr d series at 9:1 compression and at basically sea level will help his cause... I still stand behind what I said earlier... With his setup he can potentially hit his HP goals... Safely... The fact that his turbo is .60 A/R cold and .63 A/R hotside puts it in the range of the super 60's capabilities and there are TONS of cars over 350whp with that setup... Yet they also are only rated to 325whp...
The OP wants a dependable/reliable DD 350whp from a 1.6L. Maxing a turbo will not make for a dependable/reliable setup... This engine needs a decent sized turbo to provide enough air to make that kind of power and do it efficiently, not just do it barely and inefficiently. That is, if you want it to be safe and reliable. So I agree with what you're saying, but 350whp safely from this engine with the TB0322 might be a stretch... |
Hell if I need to I run meth inj on it at a certain boost level and higher. I already have everything to run a meth inj setup cause I was building one for my eclipse. I do know how to work the throttle.
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Originally Posted by motoxman
(Post 1304711)
My personal choice for this same HP goal for my Del Sol is using the typical Vitara build (but bored to 76mm due to a previous 75.5mm build with oiling issues) and a t3/to4e 50 trim... It will be slightly laggy but should spool up around 34 -3600 rpm and pull to redline... That being said, I have alot of work to do for traction issues below 3rd gear... Fortunately I actually know how to "Drive" a car instead of just slamming the gas to the floor and hanging on as so many of the younger generation tend to do... They just dont realize that the throttle is not an on/off switch... I have tentatively named them "togglers"... LOL... Either way, the lower HP car can actually be faster because of the traction issues with FWD...
To the OP... Good luck with your build... Take care of it and enjoy it and keep up good maintenance and it will last you for quite sometime... Anythings less than that and we will be reading about your next build very soon... How much extra displacement do you get from the 76mm bore? We're running a mitsu TD04 13T (stock turbo from an impreza WRX) on a MK1 87 MR2 (built for autocross and road course) with a 4agze converted to NA manifold with a water to air intercooler and megasquirt standalone. With that turbo on that 1.6L, peak boost hits like a brick wall at 3000rpm and holds all the way to the limiter at 7500. Right now we're running about 13psi boost and making about 240hp. It's unbelievable how an engine performs when you match it to the right turbo so that it runs in it's most efficient range... 70% at 3000rpm, 76% at 5000rpm and still above 70% at 7500rpm (limiter). A properly, well thought-out setup will not only net you the numbers you're after but it will also net you more usable, safe power and a car that's very fun to drive. ;D |
Originally Posted by WORPeclipse
(Post 1304713)
Hell if I need to I run meth inj on it at a certain boost level and higher. I already have everything to run a meth inj setup cause I was building one for my eclipse. I do know how to work the throttle.
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I have everything for the meth injection and i dont have a slightly larger turbo.
The 76mm is .40 or 1mm over bore. and i dont think you are lookin up his turbo. Hit is the t3/to4e 50 trim hybrid. |
MPR... Here is the Link to squirrel performances calculator showing my intended application... You likely looked at hte standard "50" trim... i am using the Super 50... Horsepower goals are the same 325 - 350 ish on moderate boost with pump gas and 400 ish on more boost on race gas...
http://www.***************/turbocalc...&product_id=58 You will have to replace the *** B.S. with squirrelpf dot com |
Turbo Graph
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Maybe this will work better...
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Yep. I was looking at the standard 50-trim before. I also use squirrel performance turbo calculator quite often to check maps. It's fairly accurate. It's bang-on for our MR2 with the TD04 13T.
This map shows your engine on that turbo at 350hp: (map might be a little off... forgot to change the target AFR, so it's at 12:1 for this map) |
One question. I have a OEM Honda timming belt that was put on about 40k ago with new tensioner. Are these ok to reuse or should I replace?
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^It's up to you. They recommend replacing the belt every 100k or so. Not a bad idea to install a new timing belt and water pump while it's apart. Peace of mind and a little added insurance. Use a belt and water pump from honda, not some aftermarket brand. Tensioner should be fine.
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It is a Honda belt thats on it. Also have a new Honda water pump already. Got the head off and found a burnt valve. Can I clean the carbon off all the other valves with a wire brush on a angle grinder or a cup wire brush on a drill?
Not the slightest ring lip on the cylinders. So should be able to do just a slight hone and put all the forged internals in. |
Oh and im goin to just do a slight hone before I put it all together.
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For hp goals of 350whp, I think the t3/t4e 50trim is prob most econimical route. I prefer the .63ar housing. You'll prob need bigger fuel injectors too, you'll be cutting it close on duty cycle if you do hit 350whp. Also, on the d-series, a head job makes a world of difference once you get into the 350-400+ range.
On my old vitara build, I made just shy of 400 w/ the 50trim and .63ar housing. As for meth, I was one of the guine pigs w/ the Devil's own kit and it was OK, but overall if your goals are in the 300-400 range, I found it best to just run race gas. I like the K.I.S.S. rules. |
A wire wheel shouldn't harm the valves at all and is the easiest way to knock off carbon.
Be sure to check the piston to wall clearance before throwing forge internals in and compare it to the forged piston PTW clearance specs. There is always a compromise between power and spool for a given displacement and choosing turbos, but a small'er' turbo being pushed a bit harder tends to give a broader and more entertaining powerband, especially if the fuel can support the higher temps associated. 300whp 14bs aren't all that "typical" and 375 isn't too likely at the wheels for almost any setup DSM setup even on more exotic fuels. Thats a 34 ish lb/min turbo being pushed pretty far to the right of the map. |
With boost... i started out just like most everyone else back in the day, small turbo and dsm 450s... but you know its too addicting, you won't be happy until you have too much power to drive on the street. Do your self a favor and just get something that'll support 400right off the bat. :)
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Its a DD and I'm wantin to keep it street able. I have a AWD DSM I'm buildin to around 500whp it will be my fast car when I need more power. They will do 350 at 90% - 95% duty cycle. So I think i can get 300 to 325 out of them at lower duty cycle. I can always upgrade if I need to. My spec sheet that came with them said to set min clearance at .003-.0035" and for turbo apps add .001-.003" more clearance. Right now my pistons measure 2.951 and my cylinders before being hones are at 2.953. So i have plenty of room to do a slight hone job on.
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If you bump the fuel pressure up a bit, you'll be able to get a bit more out of those injectors. though it's not recommended to push an injector above 90% as that leaves no room for safety should it suddenly need more for whatever reason. 75% duty cycle at peak hp is ideal for most setups. You may want to run bigger injectors if you plan on pushing much above 300whp. It's also not a very good idea to crank the pressure to compensate for under-sized injectors...
We're running DSM's in our MR2. at 240hp and 13psi, we're at 75-80% duty-cycle which is getting close to the edge, imo. Though we were still running the stock fuel pump/pressure for the 4agze. We're building a new engine for this coming season and plan on running 20psi+ (about 300hp) and will definitely be upgrading the fuel pump and injectors. Probably 550's or so... |
Man setting these ring gaps are tedious. 0.017, 0.019, 0.021. Bore is set at 2.955 with a PTW of 0.0040-0.0045. I set the PTW according to JE's paper work that they sent with the pistons. This was also verified on their website. 0.0030-0.0035 plus 0.001-0.0030 for turbo, supercharged, nitrous, and endurance vehicles. As soon as my buddy drops my ring compressor back off I will be installing pistons and rings. Already clearanced the block for the rods today. Honed the cylinders got a nice 45* to 50% crosshatch. Recleaned the block after notching and honing were done. Been a long tedious day today.
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Here is a link to the pics of the build thus far.
Delsol pictures by worpedteg - Photobucket |
Damn, those are some beefy rods... lol
Lookin' good so far! :) |
yeah alot better than what was in there. Thanks man. Waitin on my buddy to return my ring compressor so i can finish the bottom end. New valve is supposed to be in anyday.
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Got the bottom end assy waitin on my gasket set to get here. It is supposed to arrive on wed. Along with my HKS EVC-S. My have a set of ARP head studs bein shipped out tomorrow.
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