Water Injection 2007
 

Hey hey all the previous Post about water injection know all the fact's stared in 2003. Now its 2007.
2003 was along time ago and im shure all who have used it have learnt something new and we will be able to Exspell the Myth's So lets Fire up this Thread one more Time.

Is Water Injection really a band Aid for a bad/poorly designed/forged motor?

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

I have always thought about it how benificial is PURE WATER INJECTION? does anyone have some stat's cos i know water will supress Detonation/Drop intake Temp. Hence have a Much Healthier/Less strained/ Cooler running engine.

Or is Pure Water Injection just a Myth?

Or does Water Injection actually mean Water & methonal Injection?

Water meth is More Dangerous! it needs more tuning.

I understand meth increases octane and running water meth is piontless if you dont advance timing/Increase boost correct?

But meth costs $$$$ and isnt always Avavlible like water that is free/always avalible?


what si your guys thoughts and view.s

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

this is the 2003 Post https://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/...p?topic=4257.0

I have read th Whole Post and there isnt actually any stats on how benficial the water injection is, i know they discuss creating the water injection kit, but now they are readily avlible for very gewd prices all over the globe. Why reinvent the wheel right?

I think this is the cream of the crop over the 4 pages (As per Above Link)
Only Still working links
http://www.angelfire.com/super/buickgn/index.html
http://users.frii.com/maphill/wi.html
http://www.imoc.co.uk/technical/article/wi.htm

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

JD's on pgmfi

http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=4055
http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=6523

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

You can run winshield wiper fluid.. (H2o/methonal mix) the generic shits better as it doesnt have as much detergent in it... 1-2 bux a gallon.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Are we ever going to Kill this animal????

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

http://www.customobsessions.com/modu...wtopic&t=10252

an article i did a while back on a local forum!

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Water injection cools the intake charge: False

thats not true, urrrr, i mean it is true, urrrr, you know what i mean.

it does cool the intake charge if you spray it somewhere further back than the ports. assuming you spray it fine enough, and the air you spray it into is hot enough. without those factors, you dont have the surface area or desire to change state. hence the desire for a high pressure pump to push the same volume of water through a smaller orifice as a lower pressure pump would push through a bigger orifice, but making far far more use of it.

Re: Water Injection 1927
 

Actually, it was all carved in stone by the mid to late 1920s. You aren't changing the basic nature of water injection, what you are doing is asking grassroots enthusiasts without an entry level college physics class under their belt what they currently think on the topic of water injection. 99.9% of the responses you get on any internet forum are not going to be correct, and as a layman you will be motivated by the argument you most want to hear regardless of it's veracity.

Here is the 0.01%, can everyone remove their head from their ass and pay attention to it?

Water Injection Myths


Fred, if you read and refer to the articles I posted, based off of Ricardo's work in the 20s, you will see that zero appreciable intake charge cooling takes place. For thermal transfer you need TIME, temperature DIFFERENTIAL, and SURFACE AREA. Changing system dynamics means significantly changing one or all of these things - for water injection in an infernal combustion engine, you can marginally influence one of these, maybe two with a stupid complex iced down water reservior.

You can't manipulate the SURFACE AREA by any means but spraying more water. Reducing surface tension with acetone or some other surfactant is going to give minimal gains - a correctly designed nozzle + pressure does a great job, and some surface tension prevents the droplets from rejoining as easily.

You can possibly manipulate TIME by spraying water further back in the charge piping (thereby causing it to fall out of suspension with the air, defeating the purpose, and causing it to draw heat out of the charge pipe and intake tract and carrying that thermal mass into the engine, thereby defeating the purpose...)... but when you take into account how quickly the air is passing through a 2.5" charge pipe at moderate 250-300 whp level, uhm, a couple milliseconds? Have fun playing with that massive increase in dwell time for thermal transfer to occur. You get a significant drop in IAT readings because it's steady state submerged in water droplets aka wet thermometer effect, but the real world charge temps don't flicker.

That leaves you with another un-manipulatible, temperature DIFFERENTIAL. These temps mean a lot when you are approaching knock limit, but as far as an impetus for thermal transfer? Forty to sixty ------- degrees Fahrenheit equate to ---- all on the scale we are talking about.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

although i'm not arguing that the charge temp drop is significant, i disagree that 20 - 30 degrees K is insignificant.

and i do think that well implemented with a mist, not a hosing, it will evaporate fast enough providing that the incoming air is pretty hot. read if you are stupid enough to not use good intercooling and an efficient turbo for your flow, there is a benefit in charge temperature. which is how i qualified what i said in the first place.

the statement was made that it "doesnt cool intake charge" implying "at all"

i was correcting it in that context of being not quite perfectly stated.

excuse my mild form of Aspergers and thus pedantic annoying habits of language fussiness.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

There is no 20 to 30 degrees K of cooling taking place outside the combustion chamber, Fred, your point means nothing. You aren't the only Aspergers kid on the internet, its pretty easy to pick you guys out linguistically.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

"Forty to sixty ------- degrees Fahrenheit equate to ---- all on the scale we are talking about." what did this mean then?

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Look up the equation for thermal transfer, find the R of mild steel, figure the area of 2 to 6 feet of pipe, and time is a factor of the time it takes to traverse the portion of charge pipe that's water injected - easily deduced by cfm to hp relationship. See how much thermal transfer there is at such a small differential on the millisecond time level. Useless. Charge temps are not changed, as the literature based on 250 degree temps states; there is no measurable increase in power.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

you didnt answer my question at all. what the hell has the pipe got to do with anything, unless the air is turbulent as hell (read low flow) only a boundary layer is in contact anyway, the pipes could be glowing red, and be a non issue...

i'm not one to just believe ---- spouted by *big* names like shelby, corky, endyn, etc etc etc whoever it is you are quoting etc etc

i'd much prefer to do my own experiments and think things through, and in this case, with HOT air from high boost on a small turbo, and with a FINE mist injected under HIGH pressure a few feet back, i strongly believe that it will cool that charge some potentially substantial amount. it may even drop pressure in the process and end up inducing the same mass of air, but there will be a temperature drop from such an activity...

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Okie i have read the Post's at Grassroot's

will water injection work:YES
Will Pure Water Injection work: YES
Will you gain Power from PWI: NO
Will you loose power from PWI: YES
PWI will drop engine Temp: YES.

So injecting Pure Water asif it was water/meth will cause a result in power loss. So you only need to inject between 10-25% of the origianl amount of fluid... thats sound correct?

Oh and you need to be running good boost (+-14.7Psi)

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

And this thread could have been a good one...



yawn.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Some respect to Shelby, but he was an enthusiast in the right place/right time and not much more. The other two are idiots with histories of bad business practices and putting out mediochre cars while aggrandising their egos. I have paid attention to them as a cognitive exercise at picking apart their bullshit

If you don't know who Sir Harry Ricardo was your education is halfassed at best. Ricardo Engineering Consultants is very much an ongoing concern in automotive R&D, even though Ricardo's been dead for decades. The majority of your internal combustion engineering texts cite Ricardo as a primary source. They at no time mention Carroll Shelby, Corketh Bellshite, or Larry Lying Faggot Widmer.

If you want to refer to someone alive, then you can refer to Vizard's work on detonation in the 70s. All the basic premises of thermal transfer are covered there.

You can go do all the research in the world you wish and you will get no gains from water injection which is what cooling of the airmass would provide. You get an increase in knock limit, and nothing more. I imagine you'll pay attention to your IAT at the time and tell yourself that it's giving you valid charge temps... even if and when they read below the ambient temperature the water/diluent is kept at. ::)

I provided referrences to the peer reviewed and approved engineering literature that I derived my information from, I did not get it from the internet posts of Larry Lying Faggot Widmer or his ilk. The least your Kiwi ass can do is READ said sources before you start arguing like a twit. As long as you have not READ the engineering-level literature that has existed for decades then you do not have grounds to refute it. You have some mental image in your head of what is going on, and it is incorrect.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

That pretty much sums up anything else that need be said.



BTW Ricardo's side-valve hemi cylinder heads FTW!!! :6

...
 

Ah.. (breathes in) I AM ENTERTAINED AT LAST!!!!

Thanks JD!

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

shelby, ricardo, vizard, corky, xxx yyy zzz etc etc etc.

have you heard of freeze spray? starts off at 20c, ends up at much much lower... thats the same principle that we are talking about, (ok, not necessarily the same, but at the least similar, ie change of density vs change of state)

how about wind chill factor?

this depends on the three things you mentioned earlier (that we agree on) what we fail to agree on here is whether you get a change in air temperature (NOT DENSITY) from it. i will continue to maintain that there is a difference there (regardless of whether it makes a measurable power difference) until i prove otherwise to myself with good logic and reason.

i skimmed those (ancient) references and didnt see anything that shows that what you are saying is true. i may take the time to have a more indepth read of them before i post again, just for your benefit.

I'll keep my "incorrect" image for now thanks.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

ya id think that there would be a temp change... (compounded by a methonal mix)...... Exactly how significant... Im not all that sure, anyone done any iat tests wioth and without misting???

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Exactly, wind chill factor. The tiny fast moving particles absorb an unmeasurably small amount of heat when they come in contact with your skin. Your skin loses temperature over many seconds, not noticeably for at least a minute. A minute is not nanoseconds, so the wind's temperature is not changed (either significantly or measurably), however any stationary objects in it's path... or in the path of any airborne droplets in the case of water injection... become noticeably cooled aka wet thermometer syndrome aka droplets forming in the combustion chamber and directly cooling it.

Since you lack either, how about resorting to math and experiements and datalogs that are submitted for peer review, like the rest of the world?


That's awesome, because I was directly quoting them, and they are exactly what you will find in ICE texts.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Here is a long read about it if you like :
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=752282

I just order a water/meth injection kit and expecting it soon. Going to see what kind of difference it makes firsthand. As mentioned before it increases your knock limit, how useful is that? Well if you tune for it its can make considerable more power. Add timing? How about running even leaner (some as lean at 13:1)? Of course I wouldnt tune for it unless you had a protection feature like dropping boost in case of nozzle failure but even so.... I seen someones charts around where they logged their egts before/after water injection and they definitely dropped. We've all probably seen charts with dyno increases and decreases with water or meth or both injections. Every car is different, some will take well to it while some wont. Personally I know a guy with a 401whp hyundai tiburon v6 with no intercooler, only water meth injection. Daily driven for along time and regularly beat on. I dont doubt it drops intake temps, I do believe it has to be considerably hot in order to do it though (in this guys case no intercooler....). I'll speak with firsthand experience next time hopefully...

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

another ruined thread... side discussion begins...

aparently you dont understand wind chill factor. your skin is wet. you are constantly evaporating water. the instant that wind moves past you, you feel the cold from it evaporating that water faster. if your thermometer soaking theory is right, and i have no doubt that that would occur, and make measurements difficult to take, then its not the temperature of the water thats doing it, its the evaporation of the water thats landed as further air comes past. change of state uses a LOT of heat energy. its endothermic. a lot.

once again, i dont expect the charge to be 2K, but maybe (inlet - 20)K or so... or less drop/higher temp, but something, and not immeasurable, except in the case where the thermometer is wet. you could measure it by only spraying so much that it all evaporated before the sensor, then the true temperature would be known, and i could be proved right. you could do it with a furnace blowing hot air through a longish pipe, measure temp, inject sfa water as a FINE mist, measure again after its all gone into proper vapour, and you would have your answer. such a rig belongs in a lab, not my drive, so i wont be bothering just to prove a point to you. if you measured it at 10 feet, you could interpolate back to 2 feet to find how much energy was used. you could create some functions that adequately described the surface area of the droplets as they shrunk from evaporation, and another function to show the propensity of the water to evaporate.

LOL, thats pretty funny, but not at all true.

that will clearly show when i read through them then...

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

I think this is the Most comprehesive site with regards to water injection im pretty sure all question can be answerd if this site is Leeched dry... http://www.waterinjection.info/

What i can tell you is that Water Injection Tuning and Water&Methonal Tuning is two TOTALLY different ball games...

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

awesome, something constructive!

http://www.not2fast.com/thermo/water...opt_mass.shtml

this is something from eric the creator of the ms tuning software many of us have used megatune.

as much as i hate megatune, hes a switched on dude, and that is the sort of thing i'm expecting...

not ---- loads, but not nothing....

fred.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

And intake charge which is exposed to water droplets for nanoseconds constantly evaporates absolutely nothing. You keep making my point. I repeat, the combustion chamber, or anything that experiences any sustained amount of water passing across it, is what is cooled.


No, measurements aren't difficult to take. If the intake charge was cooled appreciably then power would come up measurably as cooler denser air fills the combustion chamber with more airmass.


Proving whether or not water injection chills the intake charge is very much a simple thing to do with garden variety tuenarboi tools and a dyno. Quit making excuses for why you won't read the literature, or apply yourself to performing a simple test that I and other have already done. I've got a LOT more experience than you with tuning cars, dynos, water injection, and holy ---- all three put together, Fred. I've always been more than happy to share my insight with no pricetags or consumer ----- advertisements involved, back up the ---- I say with verifiable referrences, etc, but you're going on ZERO information, ZERO experience, and an erroneous opinion that's worth ZERO. Arguing with you is like arguing with a telephone pole. :3

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

i could say the same thing, and heres the reason :

we are arguing at cross purposes.

i say "it will be cooled some small but real amount"

then you say "it wont be cooled enough to matter"

...

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

We're talking real-life noticeable applications, not theory or what happens ideally.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

No now your saying the same thing JD has said from the begining, but your twisting your words to make it sound as though you are arguing the same point. Which you are not. You are just trying to save face now. Is this not what you said earlier below.

...is not the arguement your presenting now is it???
IE you are proven wrong and are now simply beating a dead horse.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

no, i still think its some appreciable difference. jd still thinks its not, but keeps stating that its not happening at all. which it is.

dont worry, i wont back down unless i see a good reason to. i was just trying to explain why he feels that way...

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

i just shat

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Never mind, i don't want to play.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

:-X

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

[quote=Joseph Davis ]

No, measurements aren't difficult to take. If the intake charge was cooled appreciably then power would come up measurably as cooler denser air fills the combustion chamber with more airmass.
[/quote}

How do you figure? The water/meth cools the air by turning to steam. The steam then takes up space that cannot be filled by more air.... The temp drop is supposed to outweigh that factor though.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Liquid is incompressible, and displaces air, but have you ever calculated the amount of liquid we are talking here? Its inconsequential. Compare the large amount of exhaust coming out of the tailpipe when you rev your engine to 5K for 5 minutes during which time the gas needle doesn't move. Do you know how many cfms it takes to consume a gallon of gasoline?? Further, there IS NO STEAM until the mix meets the chamber. The only thing cooled enough to ideally increase VE is the intake valve face, but Vizard's work on detonation only showed an increase in knock limit from controlling intake valve temps. That cooling simply happens too late in the tract to create real world VE gains.

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Charts and dyno from water injection :
http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/water_injection.php#


Anyways the larger gain from it is tuning for it (advancing timing/boost). Also using it just before the intake manifold keeping everything internal much cooler as its moving across it can be a big help for someone with cast iron pistons (such as myself). Compression maybe 7.5:1 but forged pistons are exactly available for my car......

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

Why cant i View this Datalog.PDF i can view the other one. this Would of been the FirstTempreture Comparison Chart,Before water Injection Temp and After Water Injection Temp...

Re: Water Injection 2007
 

didnt think my article would spark so much arguement.... I fully agree with JD though