Spoolin performance welding update
 

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Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

DO you drink before u start welding ???

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

why do you ask ? :8

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

you don't seem consistent at all.

now i understand tig welding is hard and all, but man you have some spots that are huge wide welds then some are thin and looks good, but it just throws the whole look off when there not the same looking.

alos practice your starts and stops, there so noticable it's crazy.

and will you stop running those damn dual turbo flanges. t4's are Way different how do you think that a manifold will perform if it is not designed for that given size turbo (T25,T3,T4)

please explain?

now don't take this the wrong way, but it is rare that i'm impressed with peoples welds.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

I would like to see some of your welds to compare :S

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

now do you expect me to post in every thread that i give welding feedback in? sounds dumb.

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Now i never have said i am the best welder in the world, but i listen to people when i get feedback and i hope other do the same, only way you can learn.

again i go for consistent welds as it makes the peice look better overall.

again no offence to spoolin but he made a thread in welding fab on HMT, this isn't honda tech where everone will ride your nuts.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

the collector pieces are not done. they've been rooted and capped but normally i work over with a final bead because areas are difficult to get in. the torch angle changes due to getting in to diffrent areas, thus causing the starts and stops. while on runner to runners i dont mind keeping a small and smooth bead. but on the collectors which is always one of the #1 areas to crack, i tend to move in a little more heat to make sure i get some real good penetration because its this area that has the most stress other than the collector.


also doesnt help i was moving around from testing the dynasty 200DX vs my usual synchrowave 200

the dynasty inverter definitely is a kick ass welder but i had difficulties readjusting my welding technique to the older transformer based welder. With the inverters, the arc is much more stable and the ability to keep small beads are amazing.



while you may have the advantage of weld consistency in start and stops and bead size.

your beads are not " uniformly" spaced ---- it is only the weld color and the rainbows that hide the true contours of your weld beads. The filler rod i use is not your typical 316 or 309 and will not normally provide many " rainbows" for ooh's and ahh's.

I am not perfect. nor are you. i believe the only one that gets close is full-race when it comes to extreme consistency but neither I or you charge those types of prices.


Lastly, i have straight t4 flanges also for those who wish to have full-t04E based manifolds i use the dual pattern flange because

1) lets the consumer have a choice whether to run a t3 or t4 based turbo
2) marketability
4) doesn't cost me or my consumer anymore to have machined then std t3 based flange.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

yeah i still work everyday to get that robot like consistency that i strive for. lol but i don't think that will come anytime soon.

yeah i tried to use 316 rod before and the color was crazy but the puddle felt like ---- compared to 308. so i went back to 308.

I also have found that people look the colored welds, and getting the color has come down to when i pull the torch away from the weld. really funny how welds suck if there not rainbow colored? right?

I have been looking into getting a 200dx is it worth it?
I'm pretty partial to my sync 200.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

yep !! all my welds pretty much stay consistent with gold. except as of lately, i maintenance my syncro 200 and changed over the contact points. machine went weird on me and recently set itself back to running smooth again. no idea what the hell it was but it infuriated me for a good day when i'd do test runs and the arc was stable for nothing.

made me feel like either i got used to the 200DX or my machine was somewhat jacked up.

in the end it was jacked up after i let other people /welders i know use it and they confirmed it was very inconsistent.


the 200DX is definitely something when it comes to aluminum. love all the settings that can be done. def make someone look like much more of a welder than they really are.

the stainless welding is extremely SMOOTH and dead silent.

i'd love to purchase me a 200DX except the whole economy and $$$ thing


with the "colors"
i've noticed other company's who have extreme colors/tiger stripping in their welds. but upon up close inspection. I wouldn't feel safe with it . the consistency is horrible but the colors and tiger stripping def made it look " snazzy" in pictures.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

Yeah i wish people took good picture like you do not hide them with a shitty camera.

I have a line on a 200dx for $1300 and with the increased AL welding i have coming my way i thought it would be nice with the settings it has available.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

if i could get a 200DX for 1300 i'd pick one up without blinking a frigign eye !!

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

no complaints here. That ---- is 100x better than I could wish to do. Looks good to me.

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AH HAH so turboD is just pretending he can't tig weld at all.
Oh dear god do we really have to do this LoL If you two want to split anus about it you're both inconsistant for opposite reasons.
DC2 - you need to quit being a damn ----- about your filler. your beads are inconsistant because youre using that tiny ass filler and every time you get out of position, or a weld isn't a near straight pipe-pipe joint you have to add more filler, or you start running near the end of your wire. it causes your weld size to be all over the place.
Ball up and use some ------- manly filler. If I threw some dye penitrant on that and blew it up to the same size as his youd have just as many spots non-perfect as TD does. Quit hiding it behind welding wire size LOL. DC2 get a damn cheater lens if you're going to keep doing that small ----. I aint kiddin.
Torch motion (when not being fucked with by not having a straight open joint) excellent.
TD - your torch motion is not nearly as consistant as his when he is running his better beads. Flipside pick the worst weld on your manifold against his best - your entire weld profile from size to filler application is likely going to be better than his.

It's obvious we need to cut you both in half. TD = left side/right brain, DC2 = right side/left brain.

If you want pwetty rainbow welds on 304 and you're not worried about it weld it with 316. ahhhhhh pretty. flows like alcohol and rainbows up via the minute change in amps when you adjust your arc height. dont even need to change the heat manually.






AFA who's the better welder I can't tell you. I CAN tell you that if I drug both of those in with me to an odd-job. DC2's would get me tossed for being all over the place on size & not able to adjust my welding to suit conditions. TD's would be ok. Just because the ripple isn't 100% uniform doesn't mean jack ---- 99% of the time. His weld is uniform to itself, the right width & height - doesn't change.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

Thanks for posting.

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matt and phil, you guys both need to buy some more flanges from me. nice work guys. better than i can do.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

thanks toysrme, i think you hit the nail on the head.

i still don't get how spoolin get those tight beads on the pipe to pipe. i can't seem to get my "dimes" to lay so close together.

i should post up my flange to pipe welds, give ya something to laugh at. haha there not that bad but there not what i want them to look like.

oh and weir i have been meaning to order more flanges, just been busy

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

It's the difference in welding with 1/16 and 3/32 that you are welding with, and him using mig wire.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

ahh, i just switched from using 035-045 to 1/16th on 16g tubing.

idk i now like using a thicker rod then even a few months ago. seems to fill with less effort.

i was thinking of going and taking a tig class again, just to get walking the cup down a bit, or w/e they teach you in a "non-n00b" class.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

thats what your gf said after she spent the night at my place :6

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

i should have seen that coming.... :-[

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<- king of the mountain
I use 3/16"... Because that's what the job had in the take-home bin.

Ya 1/16 & 3/32 work real well on 16g. 1/16" flows real well if you want to two pass it. 3/32 is just big enough to one pass it. Neither require very much in the way of rod advancement while you weld.
























FYI Take-home bin = my welding gear bag

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

Is that a one pass "full race" style weld?

It's really hard to get consistent penetration doing it that way.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

using 1/16 =)

imo the beads are easier to control with the dynasty 200dx i was using to make that manifold. just testing out a buddies machine.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

i one pass pretty much everything... i don't really feel it necassary to root and cap. these are turbo manifolds, not something for the space shuttle or something. everything i do is local though, so if there are ever any issues, the customer just need bring it back to me and i'll repair or replace it free. i try not to ship too much fab stuff.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

First manifold I made for a customer is a year old now, and the welds were not great. Single pass, pretty cold, very little filler.

Absolutely no failures, including the new owner crashing the car up onto a center median and plowing the downpipe into the curb so hard the whole downpipe bent.

From what I can tell, sch 10 is pretty forviging for manifolds. It seems to me that most people having problems with cracking etc are due to shitty designs, not machining warped flanges, etc. more than the welding itself.

Obviously we all want to make the nicest welds we can, I but also tend to wonder if a full-on, zero land (or even gapped) full pen multi-pass weld is really adding anything other than fabrication time.... these discussions are great and I really appreciate all of the really experienced dudes chiming in. :y

I am working on some 16ga stuff at the moment, different ballgame entirely it seems. Almost feel like I'm -re-learing a lot of stuff.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

Yikes, 1/16" or 3/32" on .065" material :l

Way to heat soak you materials, don't be surprised to find a failure in the HAZ.

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What do you want him to say? What's the point in multi-passing something when you don't have too?
If you are burning the stainless you're burning the stainless no matter what you're trying to do it with. Try using the correct amount of current & travel speed.
I like 3/32 on 16 gauge. By the time that .09375" diameter rod sticks out the bottom a hair to give you some pen, then flows into the joint & caps the top of the bevel's width. It's a great match.

Use what you want, but small wire is nothing more than a newbie's attempt at trying mask problems while wasting money (Time, material & maintenace). If someone had a half inch rod, aslong as it will sit in the bevel there's no excuse for burning up the base metal.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

What? Are you serious? The amount of current you need to melt 3/32" filler is far more than you need to fully penetrate .065" material in any position.
Using smaller filler is anything but unprofessional. Why do you think automated and orbital tube welders run .023" wire on .065" material??? You should never run filler the same thickness as your base material. Would you run 1/4"filler when welding you 4" sch40 pipe? :S
I've seen your pipe welds, they are good, hell they are great, but it doesn't seem you have much experience in the thin wall dept.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

WTF are you beveling 16 gauge for? Seriously. I'm far from a professional, but beveling 16 gauge material means cleaning the edge of the pipe with the SLIGHTEST of angles. Creating an actual bevel is unnecessary and borderline impossible.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

Its plenty possible, but far from necessary for you standard .065" wall butt weld tube application.

I sometimes have to manually or semi/full automatically weld Al6Xn .065" wall tube, we put a small ( I think about .035" thick) hastelloy ring in between the butt weld and I like to give the tube ends a slight bevel because I find the ring better melts into the parent material with the addition of filler.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

i guess i don't know what you mean. i do a pretty hot and fast root pass with no filler then i go back over with 1/16th 308 rod, to fill. so i do 2 passes total.

"full race"??? explain.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

Orbital pipe welders can feed however much wire they need at any rate needed. Your hand can not do indefinately.
Youll find more .065 .052 and .045 automated tig welders than you will .023. When you buy in bulk, the thicker the wire the cheaper. The smaller the wire, the more times it has to be drawn through the die hickey that sizes it. Larger wire is less wear on the feed too.
The few automated tigs Ive run across are all hot-wire anyway. They pre-heat the wire Im guessing 350-600*F before it hits the puddle.


Define what you call a full pen weld. Show me an example picture (doesn't matter who's, or on what).

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

Here's some sanitary grade 304 ss, .065" wall, 2" tube. I made this weld in the 5g position(no positioner or turn rolls), and without amperage control.

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That was from 2 years ago, I used a maxstar150stl, scratch start baby :X

I have gotten better now, I can make 5g and 6g position welds with my dynasty machines a lot smaller, I'll try and get some pics tomorrow.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

looks good.

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why is there talk about orbital welders? talk about off tapic. haha

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

I am sure you are more familiar with pipe oriented automated tig systems. My experience is more with tube than pipe, .030"-.120"wall thickness up to 15-20,000psi. The weld procedures get fairly technical, too thick of filler requires too much current, increasing risk of failure in the HAZ area. If I can find some time in the next while here maybe I will do some coupons with different sized filler getting full pen on .065" material to show the effects of using too large of filler.

The thing I think you are missing is that for .065" material you shouldn't be adding much filler at all, if you want a high deposition rate weld, its best to use GMAW.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

How we got on orbital machines?
I *think* it's because Engloid nuked Full-Race LONG ago for being the first startup manifold biz on the net with an "automated tig welder" machine back in the day (AKA mexican kid down the street pushing a button). They were welding so uncontrollably hot with it trying to do single passes they had to start & stop ungodly often. When I mean often, I mean Beyond what you see most smart newbies start and stop. Stuff looked on the verge of burning up. Had they not been wire-brushing some of the welds you could see the luster was gone. Inconsistant pen without burning it up or nuking the grain struture in the HAZ in some way - Which is what Passenger is trying to state. Yes, it requires alittle more skill to do... LoL!
Basically after FR was saying all this bullshit about how great their machines and operators, engineers, programmers, blah blah blah were their welds would have tanked out under your normal pipe / pressure vessle codes.

Passenger, you're right on the ### rate. That's why alot of automated systems now use hot-wire. Same reason for people using the super high pulse rates in manual/automated tig now. Up that ### rate to up that work rate & save $ buying wire. Haven't seen a fast pulse hot-wire yet, but Im sure someone has put the two together. Id really like to see that on some major production machine.
My point was that if you're ontop of it. You shouldn't have a problem with burning it up, having a gigantic bulky weld or a grain structure problem in the HAZ.


Orbital pipe welders? Na, Ive seen more orbital welders than Ive used. Seen more sit idle than Ive seen in use too. The places Ive been too only use the orbital welders so they can have some newbie run it - which doesn't work out because there's always some GD problem that the $9/h loader/button masher can't deal with. Then they have to retain some smart guy who gets paid more because he knows how to program the stupid things - who takes his ------- time getting to the machine let alone fixing the GD thing. Winds up having so much down-time it's just cheaper to pay a real welder and have him work extra. LoL! Ive done alittle bit with an orbital welder. Didn't like it much. Seemed to take all god damned day to fix mechanical issues then program it to do whatever new weld its doing. Wasn't god's gift to orbital welders. Some old POS. Im sure a newer less worn out one would be puffy nipples.

Weld looks good. I was expecting more what afew people on here consider a weld with some pen. I.E. there are heatmarks on the backside and nothing is broken down LoL! Just inconsistant and alot of suckback when there is any pen from trying to move too fast with too small a root opening. Great to see a nice even breakdown on the backside. What was the backside reinforcement on that? Normally when I get down to doing tube alot of times some small amount of backside reinforcement is still asked for. I see 1/32-1/16 alot.

Soooo many codes. Don't quote me on ASME. I haven't sat down and read any of it in along while, but I *think* for single welded but joints the maximum inner and outer reinforcement though 1/8" thickness is 3/32". 1/8" - 3/16" thickness it's 3/32" inner and 1/8" outer. Sometimes you don't even need an inner tho. At 700-800*F you want 1/16" reinforcement. Not sure don't own an ASME code book.

Re: Spoolin performance welding update
 

The high pulse rates, like 400+ pps are used to agitate the puddle, it gives the arc some stability especially in a 5g position weld, which is exactly what an orbital machine has to deal with. When you are using a stationary head and a positioner or turn rolls to rotate the workpiece you can better weld quality and repeatability. Hopefully in a few weeks I'll be done the first phase of my automated tig machine, I'll be sure to post up some results, for now it will be cold wire, but maybe I'll come up with a hot wire system in the future. I honestly don't really have any experience with hotwire systems, I've never programed one, but its something I'd like to get some experience with.

Orbital welders really are kind of lame, they are so limited in what they can do, and really, you need a skilled operator on them half the time anyways to adjust the programs for different parts etc, he may as well just weld them by hand. Orbital machines are only useful if you are making thousands of the same part. I get called in to program them, but usually end up having to convince the owner that they got shafted on the purchase, the sales guys make it sound like any nog can just program it and than its good for the rest of its service life but it isn't just that simple.


By reinforcement you mean weld protrusion depth on the I.D. right? Or are you talking Width?
Depth we shoot for .010"-.035", width no less than .065-.095", .100" is great, going much less we found brings stress risers in weld wetting area which led to pressure holding issues. Automated you can go bit thinner.

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DIY automated welder hell mother ------- yes. Been wanting to make something like a CNC router for years. (CNCZone).
Hotwire is nice, increases work rate and decreases shock in the weld puddle when the wire is put in.

Im not a big fan of automated welders. It seems like you never find anyone that has a mint condition one that's 100%, then once it's programmed to actually do something useful in spec. Someone comes along and jacks the ------- work rate on it until it near maxes itself out. Ya well, afew months later it runs like a piece of ----. The programming has been adjusted so many times it needs to be reprogrammed from scratch. Downtown is ungodly unacceptable yet noone will take the time while it is down to run in there and start from scratch.
We took a class on a generic ABB robot. Pretty new. Good condition. I worked at a place with six identical models. Most of them wouldn't out-produce a single $9/h manual welder because of how they wore them out. When I got into a position I could do it I had the tool crib boss order once full set of replacement needle roller bearings, shims & a brand new wrist. Had those installed on the worst robot. Reprogrammed it from scratch & SLOWED IT DOWN.
What it lost in flat out speed it made up for by being able to run most of the day without problems.

They're all cool and all when they're new and great condition. Noone really trying to push one to it's full ability. Really, they're stupid. They can't correct their own problems.


The height and width.

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Yeah I am pretty stoked I am finally getting it all together, I have been planning and dreaming of building an automated tig machine for the last 3 or 4 years, its just finally coming into play now. It'll be cool cause than I can seem weld or turning work as well O0

For now I am just going to power all the axis so its more like a semi automatic setup, but when I get time and money I want to make it fullyl automated (need to find that kind of work first).