Aaron Cake

I cannot comment on what power can be extracted from various Honda blocks, but I certainly understand your reference to "common knowledge". In the DeLorean world, it is "common knowledge" that the PRV cannot run more then "5 PSI" of boost. However these people don't understand a thing about turbo efficiency and don't like to work with turbos that weren't designed in the '60s. Needless to say, a decent modern turbo that doesn't push more heat then air will run a PRV on more then 5 PSI without issue. So we sort of say the same thing from two different perspectives.

I'm really not sure what you are referring to when you say people like me wouldn't be able to make mediocre power without people like you. I can assure that none of what I do has or will ever be based on what you have done. I'd also like to say that I'm not making mediocre power and to make a statement like that is to introduce a "red herring" as you will mention later in your post.

I used an S-AFC as an example as it was mentioned by the OP and it is a very common mistake to try and make big power on a rotary with only an S-AFC.

In reality, it is really about conserving parts that are no longer produced, not available aftermarket, and compared to Honda stuff, had a very limited production run. Housings can be substituted from other 13Bs, but there are always consequences (ie. emissions passages don't match, spark plug locations slightly different, etc.). It is just good sense to not willfully destroy parts when there are a limited number of them available. I'm not big on breaking stuff for the purpose of breaking stuff, and have never really had to. Some people have a talent for recognizing points of failure before seeing them, and I am one of those people. It is actually a very rare talent, and I probably had to trade another talent for it.

I honestly can't think of anything that couldn't be looked up. Can you give me an example?

I mentioned it because it does prove that yes, indeed, I have had to deal with one "blown engine". Just not in the manner you expect. I'm not trying to confuse the discussion and every one of my points was meant in reply to one of yours.

In no way did I try to say that you are stupid or inept, but you do seem to be ignorant about the rotary. "Ignorance" in this instance simply means lack of knowledge, or confusion. I am ignorant about Honda engines because I don't even know what a D-series is. But because of this, in no way would I ever attempt to give advice or input on how they are to built.

I'd appreciate it if you kept comments like "nobody" out of this thread. While I may be new to this forum, I have been doing rotary related stuff since I was 18 and have thus been around the block a few times. Maybe I am a nobody on this forum, and that's fine. I don't intend to make a load of posts because there isn't much for me to comment on.

Then if that's the case, the turbo seems like a good choice. *shurg* I don't have any valuable input regarding Holset turbos.

The funny thing is, none of them.

The PowerFC is a fine ECU, but I don't use them mainly because they are almost always billed as "plug and play". I'm always of the opinion that a standalone installation should include a new harness.

F-Con really isn't engine management.

Run, don't walk, from the e-Manage. In a rotary application, it sucks. Without going into all the reasons, just search RX-7 Club for "e manage" and watch the horror.

If you cannot tune the car, then one of the factors should be whatever your tuner is familiar with. In the rotary world, this is the Haltech, Microtech, Wolf and Megasquirt. Probably in that order.

The Haltech, when set up correctly and not of the E6 series, is a good ECU. The Microtech is also good but it has limitations (no closed loop, no save to disk, no factory support, crappy timing tables). I run a Microtech on my car. Avoid the Wolf. I only have experience with prior versions but if the new one borrows anything from the old, I'd avoid it. The 'Squirt is a great ECU if you can DIY it.

They all do the same thing for the most part, and tuning is more important then the ECU itself.

In my opinion, AICs don't have a lot of place in todays world unless you are talking about very specific applications (retrofit on top of an existing ECU that you have no option to change). Timing is what makes a turbo rotary reliable and unless you can control it (including timing split) you will run into issues.

I don't think I should be giving advice on Holset turbos. I can't seem to find any information about them and thus can't make comparisons.

Sounds like you are exactly the candidate for a turbo-NA setup then. I'm not sure what you are referring to about OEM seals being an issue though. OEM seals are very good and used in high power setups with no issues. Personally I use Atkins seals, but only to trade off a faster breaking as compared to Mazda deals. I would never say that they are "better". The Mazda two piece seals being sold now (as opposed to the three piece seals they were selling for modern 13Bs up until about 2003) are highly reliable.

2GeclipseRST

Thanks for the info. I suppose i'll harrass zac some time this week and see what we can cook up.

If he can tune megasquirt, i'll pick up one at the end of the month and have my buddy caleb assemble the unit. Does msns come with instructions or do they just give you the ---- in nice little baggies and assume you know what goes where? Not the wires. The little resistors, transistors, boards....etc.....

TTT on our forum (rx7club) is running butt firewall connectors and that was something i've been wanting to do.

Re-doing the harness shouldn't be that difficult. It's just time consuming. I fried the one in my gxl due to the previous owner's hack job fail bullshit and had to use the one from my se and peices of the one from my gxl. Took me roughly 3 days to sort out the mess. I can afford a degree of downtime on my car.

I'll talk to my tuner and get back to this thread asking for more help. I'm sure he's crossed paths with msnsII before.

Tom-Guy

You perceive two perspectives. The common knowledge I referred to is a third. You should hunt down the Shed or Fanglers mailing lists and let the old timers chew on your *** for a while, their body of common knowledge is not what you find on high profile forums.


What you have done is based on what someone like me has done - pushed limits. I never said you paid attention to me as an individual. That's pretty obvious.

Given the demand for Honda parts compared to rotaries, there is a greater shortage of Honda parts. The aftermarket may be flooded with affordable performance pieces but the available core engines and chassis are evaporating. You fail to realise that the Honda Civic is the #1 most modified vehicle ever produced, but (unlike GM with it's Gen I SBC production numbers exceeding 60 million) there were relatively few D's and B's manufactured. If I wish to conserve the remaining supplies then a few must be sacraficed for the greater good.


How do you recognize these points of failure before they manifest, Aaron? Can you share your the metallurgy, rockwell hardness, and FEA testing you have done to the rotary engine? Or do you accomplish these rare feats with a vivid imagination, or some form of ESP? Feynman could do something analagous because he was manipulating pure theory by means of abstract math within a logical framework whose rules he could set aside or redefine on a whim until he had a working hypothesis he could TEST. But this is not pure theory, this is cold hard reality where factual observation and measurement tempers and directs all right brain activities.


Unimaginitive. You sound like one of those cats from the 1800s who thought that everything worth discovering had already been discovered. I hope you've read something more substantial than Taylor's two volume summary of the works of his betters, or common place (if brilliant) material such as Ricardo. While basic theory is set, actual application is the wild west. Further, quite a lot of the successful racing tricks are not published, sorry. If it was as easy as a textbook then a dumb redneck like Yunick wouldn't have embarrased all of F1.

Read Glassman's Combustion, if you want to look things up. There's quite a lot that he did with regard to monopropellants that has never been applied to the internal combustion engine, and what little has been done is decades old and never addressed practical limitations in the age of precise EFI control.


I agree completely, I know less than I should about rotaries. But you, sir, you know less of pistons than you should.


Depends on the chassis. Most vehicles having **** poor wiring and ground systems, I will cede your point, but there are notable exceptions.


Do they ever intend to include a battery compensation table? It's a joke on a streetcar without one. I can get them to reply to faux sales inquiries, but thy have never replied once about incorporating a very basic feature.

Aaron Cake

You get a bunch of stuff in little baggies, and then you need to read the instructions on MegaManual to assemble it. That said, you also have the option to purchase assembled Megasquirts from most vendors. I tend to buy from DIYAutoTune and it's about 50/50 whether I purchase assembled or in kit form. It depends on my frame on mind when I order and also how much effort I want to put into the build. Honestly, if you have not done electronics work before, just get an assembled 'Squirt. You will still have to modify it for rotary ignition by adding a second VR circuit and a few pullup resistors to the LEDs.

The 'Squirt is quite easy to tune. I like the interface of Megatune a lot even though it has a few rough edges. The main VE tuning is what most time is spent in, and it's straightforward and easy to manipulate.

I've been following his excellent threads as well, and am very annoyed that I did not think of using firewall connectors in my build. Then again, they occupy the same space as my dry sump reservoir is about to.

The nice thing about a standalone from scratch is that you can chose your own connectors. Sourcing all the Mazda connectors gets annoying (though most are made by Molex and available from Waytek). In addition, all new cable with a small subharness for the critical CAS signal, then another for the coil signals is a great thing to have.

Most have at this point. But even if they have not, it's an easy thing to pick up for those with tuning experience.

I don't know what those lists are. I searched "Shed discussion list" in Google and came up with nothing. So I don't know what it is about. Engine building? EFI? Turbos? I'm already on too many lists and forums to keep up anyway.

But I am pushing those same limits that you are pushing. We all work from a base body of knowledge and then improve upon it. Those working in complete isolation rarely accomplish anything.

OK. I don't know anything about Honda engine shortages because I don't modify Hondas. I work with RX-7s, other Mazda rotary cars, and very occasionally, a non-rotary car. As such, I would not try to sound intelligent about Hondas because I'm not.

Why would I do any testing on the rotary? It's all available in Mazda's papers. It's also totally immaterial to modifying them at a hobbyist level. The weak points in the engines are well known. Couple that with a little bit of imagination and mental synthesis and it's not hard to see potential failures. Call it ESP, call it whatever you want. I just have a talent for recognizing points of failure. Always have. It's likely mainly based on the fact that I am obsessive about things and will let something totally occupy my thought process until it has been resolved.

I think this is the first time in my life someone has called me unimaginative. Feels weird. My sentence structure was a little awkward, but what I really meant was I could not think of a way, at a hobbyist level (I'm going to define all this stuff as hobbyist now, because F1 is a little bit more advanced then HMT), that could not be looked up, off the top of my head. That sentence is just as awkward but I think it's clear. I look up technical specs, bits of engineering, but really, I don't need to look up past history to know that if I run a rotary on a dyno with too much timing it will blow up.

That's great and all, and if I ever have some time I will be sure to check it out. But how does that help me when building a rotary?

I don't need to know about piston engines because I don't ever have a need to apply that knowledge. Yes, of course I know the basics, the various configurations, etc. But if you ask me what cam I need to put in a Chevy 350 to make power between 3000 and 4000 RPM, I have no idea because it is not relevant in my life. I also don't know a thing about football.

What I expect from my piston engined Honda is that it start when I turn the key, give outstanding gas mileage, be an interesting experience to drive, and be ultimately reliable in the long term. It just so happens that I am an enthusiast about that particular Honda and know it's engine fairly well, but that is an exception. I would not have the knowledge to change the design of that engine.

Exactly. There are certainly times and places for plug and play standalones. Sadly, most of the time an RX-7 (at least a 2nd gen anyway) isn't that place. Then again, if you have a great deal on a new harness from the dealer, it's probably an excellent choice.

There is no table that the tuner can access. If I had to guess, I would say that it is done internally by the ECU as a linear interpolation. Then again, maybe it's not done at all but I would find that highly strange. My LT8s runs my car just fine without me having to adjust the compensation. Microtech's tech support is garbage, and good luck trying to get a reply on something like that from them. Even more good luck in getting them to release a software upgrade.

Hitchhikkr

I think that the point JD is trying to get across is that the number of bright folks building/modifying and "pushing the limits" of piston engines far exceeds the number of people building rotaries by a significant margin. There are many more ways to get power out of an engine than what the common body of knowledge will have you know. Both parties can learn from each other, and to flat out say that nothing new can be discovered/determined by a bit more attention to whats going on inside the motor is a logical farse.
There's always more than one way to do something. And I can think of a number of things that arent written anywhere that are either passed down or are infered knowledge amongst Porsche technicians, and never once have I EVER heard any of the respected Porsche tuners say "it cant be done" because its common knowledge that such and such engine wont handle this or do that.

I believe the other point JD was trying to make, is that to sacrifice a few engines, in order as such to design or modify them to a point that you can overcome weaknesses, thereby saving the remaining engines, is a necessary evil, and will always provide more insight into the nature of the design, than if you follow 'what is known'.
Mazda clearly has quality control issues, and I think that had more Research and Development time been spent on the rotary design, it wouldnt have the stigma attached that it has today. There is room for improvement on any design, regardless of age.


Nobody ever did anything great by following the known path or sticking to the common body of knowledge. Question everything, and believe only what you can verify. Or at least thats how I feel about it.

imburne

Sig Material

Aaron Cake

Hehe, funny guys.

I am sort of starting to get the point of what is being said. There are circumstances where breaking stuff to figure out failure modes is important, but I'll never see the point of that in a hobbyist environment. We should probably just drop it since I'm pig headed and thus the conversation will go around in circles.

"Can't be done" bothers the hell out of me because in 99.9% of cases it's totally untrue. Those who say "can't be done" are typically armchair warriors, the same people who call anything a non-brand name part "ghetto". "Can't be done" is their way of saying "I'm not capable so I doubt you are as well.".

"Ghetto" is one of my favourite insults to receive about my car. During the summer I was showing my car at local cruise in and some kid said that my stuff was "ghetto" because it didn't have stickers like "Mugen", "AEM" and "HKS" on it. His father was very apologetic. I asked the kid to show me his hands, and he did. Pink palms, perfectly smooth skin, no grease under his perfectly symmetrical finger nails. I then held out my hands full of welding burns, cuts, scars, peeling skin, dry grey palms and dirty fingernails. My reply was "When your hands look like this, I might take your criticism more seriously." The kid had no clue, but his father cracked up.

At any rate, this was a fun thread.