Something different!!
05-16-2007, 07:10 PM
#11
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,654
Re: Something different!!
Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
Its a great mod to do, Very effiective. The douche who said drums are just as good apparently doesn't know what he is talking about. Do it, cuz you will be very happy with it. Even without the upgraded master cylinder, just put on good pads and go stop fast.
05-19-2007, 04:21 PM
#14
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 892
Re: Something different!!
Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
Its a great mod to do, Very effiective. The douche who said drums are just as good apparently doesn't know what he is talking about. Do it, cuz you will be very happy with it. Even without the upgraded master cylinder, just put on good pads and go stop fast.
driven CRX's and ED hatches with rear disks. Not impressed. Good front brakes are key. Save time/money/hassle- maintain the rear drums and upgrade the fronts. But hey.... if you like tossing time/money/hassle in the ******* by all means go for it. I do fine with drums, be it abuse on the track or on the street.
Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
huge difference even without the porportioning valve. only problem with running them without it is it likes to lock up all 4 tires too easy.
contradict much?.... its great... but its bad.
05-19-2007, 04:28 PM
#15
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,753
Re: Something different!!
its not that bad, just take some getting used to. Once you get used to it, its like night and day. Drums are good for drag racing and pretty boys who don't like dust on there rims. Get the better performance outa the discs, and they aren't that hard to install, and not too expensive either.
05-19-2007, 04:41 PM
#16
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 892
Re: Something different!!
Yes drums are good for drag and keeping dust off. Those are sorta the secondary points of my argument. (we all know most [not all of course] of the people who do rear disk conversions are the pretty boys :P) Getting better performance out of rear brakes is just a lost cause in general. Maximizing the 20% you get out of the rear is just that.... 20%. (Will the disks effectively create more braking power... sure why not... negligible at best- and this not worth the effort. I believe this is what both Bone and I were trying to get at) Upgrading the fronts to larger rotors/calipers/nice pads.... now that will yield significant gains. Rear disks to me are merely a vanity item especially in a little *** Honda.
05-19-2007, 06:17 PM
#17
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,753
Re: Something different!!
So if thats the case, why is it that after i did my rear disc swap the car would stop MUCH faster than before. And before you asked, i did a breakjob with hawk pads on the rear about a month before i swapped them out. I understand that drums only work so well becuase the car naturally shifts its weight to the front as it is slowing down, but why would it work great on my car if you say it isn't worth it? Upgrading to bigger front rotors is handsdown the best mod short of a huge front disc swap, But for a affordable easily done gain, i don't think you can beat this one.
05-19-2007, 10:19 PM
#18
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 120
Re: Something different!!
I've had this same debate over and over with VW people upgrading to rear discs on Rabbits.
If your drums can lock the rear wheels stock (and they sure as ---- can), they don't need to be upgraded for normal driving. Good fluid, Porterfield shoes (I like the RS-1 material), and a new spring/cylinder package in the rear, and you will be set for everything except wheel to wheel racing.
A brake system is limited in functionality by the same thing that limits everything on a car (power delivery, turning, etc)... the TIRES. Once you overpower the tires (lock the wheels), you have more braking power than you need. The only thing upgrading the brakes can do is:
1- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction, if you didn't have it before (old 60's cars and 4-wheel drum brakes come to mind)
2- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction repeatedly, like in wheel to wheel racing. Repeated hard stops will heat-soak the pads, rotors and fluid. Larger rotors can hold more heat, and can dissipate it faster thanks to the higher surface area. Better/larger pads will be able to soak up more heat and not exceed their critical temperature. Better fluid can handle more heat before it boils, plus some calipers, like the aluminum 4-6 piston ones Brembo, Stoptech, or SSB sells can dissipate some heat.
3- Reduce unsprung/rotating mass, which is always a good thing.
4- Make modulating the threshold of braking easier. If you guys aren't familiar with threshold braking, its basically braking at the precise limit of your tires. If you know how to do it, you can actually outbrake ABS, which many people think is impossible. ABS doesn't stop the car faster than a trained driver, it simply allows an untrained, moron driver to slam on the brakes and steer simultaneously. It saves a lot of people, not because it stops their vehicles sooner than a properly executed threshold brake, but because it allows ANY driver to make repeatable stops while maintaining control.
I'd highly doubt that on such light-weight cars, such as a Civic, upgrading the rear brakes will do anything but increase rotating mass/unsprung weight, and cost you hard-earned dollars, UNLESS you are racing in HPDE's, or SCCA Club racing.
Basically, upgrading the front brakes makes a lot of sense, since they do 70% of the braking, and upgrading the rears... doesn't.
Spend your money on new shoes, drums, wheel cylinders, fluid, and hardware.
Oh, yeah, and on tires, since they make the biggest difference in what your vehicle can do. I never ceases to amuse me when I see cars that have big power under the hood, good suspension, and upgraded brakes running on Nankang tires because the owner blew his budget on everything else, and suddenly realized "oshit, I need new tires".
End of rant about brakes.
If your drums can lock the rear wheels stock (and they sure as ---- can), they don't need to be upgraded for normal driving. Good fluid, Porterfield shoes (I like the RS-1 material), and a new spring/cylinder package in the rear, and you will be set for everything except wheel to wheel racing.
A brake system is limited in functionality by the same thing that limits everything on a car (power delivery, turning, etc)... the TIRES. Once you overpower the tires (lock the wheels), you have more braking power than you need. The only thing upgrading the brakes can do is:
1- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction, if you didn't have it before (old 60's cars and 4-wheel drum brakes come to mind)
2- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction repeatedly, like in wheel to wheel racing. Repeated hard stops will heat-soak the pads, rotors and fluid. Larger rotors can hold more heat, and can dissipate it faster thanks to the higher surface area. Better/larger pads will be able to soak up more heat and not exceed their critical temperature. Better fluid can handle more heat before it boils, plus some calipers, like the aluminum 4-6 piston ones Brembo, Stoptech, or SSB sells can dissipate some heat.
3- Reduce unsprung/rotating mass, which is always a good thing.
4- Make modulating the threshold of braking easier. If you guys aren't familiar with threshold braking, its basically braking at the precise limit of your tires. If you know how to do it, you can actually outbrake ABS, which many people think is impossible. ABS doesn't stop the car faster than a trained driver, it simply allows an untrained, moron driver to slam on the brakes and steer simultaneously. It saves a lot of people, not because it stops their vehicles sooner than a properly executed threshold brake, but because it allows ANY driver to make repeatable stops while maintaining control.
I'd highly doubt that on such light-weight cars, such as a Civic, upgrading the rear brakes will do anything but increase rotating mass/unsprung weight, and cost you hard-earned dollars, UNLESS you are racing in HPDE's, or SCCA Club racing.
Basically, upgrading the front brakes makes a lot of sense, since they do 70% of the braking, and upgrading the rears... doesn't.
Spend your money on new shoes, drums, wheel cylinders, fluid, and hardware.
Oh, yeah, and on tires, since they make the biggest difference in what your vehicle can do. I never ceases to amuse me when I see cars that have big power under the hood, good suspension, and upgraded brakes running on Nankang tires because the owner blew his budget on everything else, and suddenly realized "oshit, I need new tires".
End of rant about brakes.
05-20-2007, 02:18 AM
#19
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 463
Re: Something different!!
Originally Posted by sharkytm
I've had this same debate over and over with VW people upgrading to rear discs on Rabbits.
If your drums can lock the rear wheels stock (and they sure as ---- can), they don't need to be upgraded for normal driving. Good fluid, Porterfield shoes (I like the RS-1 material), and a new spring/cylinder package in the rear, and you will be set for everything except wheel to wheel racing.
A brake system is limited in functionality by the same thing that limits everything on a car (power delivery, turning, etc)... the TIRES. Once you overpower the tires (lock the wheels), you have more braking power than you need. The only thing upgrading the brakes can do is:
1- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction, if you didn't have it before (old 60's cars and 4-wheel drum brakes come to mind)
2- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction repeatedly, like in wheel to wheel racing. Repeated hard stops will heat-soak the pads, rotors and fluid. Larger rotors can hold more heat, and can dissipate it faster thanks to the higher surface area. Better/larger pads will be able to soak up more heat and not exceed their critical temperature. Better fluid can handle more heat before it boils, plus some calipers, like the aluminum 4-6 piston ones Brembo, Stoptech, or SSB sells can dissipate some heat.
3- Reduce unsprung/rotating mass, which is always a good thing.
4- Make modulating the threshold of braking easier. If you guys aren't familiar with threshold braking, its basically braking at the precise limit of your tires. If you know how to do it, you can actually outbrake ABS, which many people think is impossible. ABS doesn't stop the car faster than a trained driver, it simply allows an untrained, moron driver to slam on the brakes and steer simultaneously. It saves a lot of people, not because it stops their vehicles sooner than a properly executed threshold brake, but because it allows ANY driver to make repeatable stops while maintaining control.
I'd highly doubt that on such light-weight cars, such as a Civic, upgrading the rear brakes will do anything but increase rotating mass/unsprung weight, and cost you hard-earned dollars, UNLESS you are racing in HPDE's, or SCCA Club racing.
Basically, upgrading the front brakes makes a lot of sense, since they do 70% of the braking, and upgrading the rears... doesn't.
Spend your money on new shoes, drums, wheel cylinders, fluid, and hardware.
Oh, yeah, and on tires, since they make the biggest difference in what your vehicle can do. I never ceases to amuse me when I see cars that have big power under the hood, good suspension, and upgraded brakes running on Nankang tires because the owner blew his budget on everything else, and suddenly realized "oshit, I need new tires".
End of rant about brakes.
If your drums can lock the rear wheels stock (and they sure as ---- can), they don't need to be upgraded for normal driving. Good fluid, Porterfield shoes (I like the RS-1 material), and a new spring/cylinder package in the rear, and you will be set for everything except wheel to wheel racing.
A brake system is limited in functionality by the same thing that limits everything on a car (power delivery, turning, etc)... the TIRES. Once you overpower the tires (lock the wheels), you have more braking power than you need. The only thing upgrading the brakes can do is:
1- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction, if you didn't have it before (old 60's cars and 4-wheel drum brakes come to mind)
2- Give you the ability to overpower your tires' traction repeatedly, like in wheel to wheel racing. Repeated hard stops will heat-soak the pads, rotors and fluid. Larger rotors can hold more heat, and can dissipate it faster thanks to the higher surface area. Better/larger pads will be able to soak up more heat and not exceed their critical temperature. Better fluid can handle more heat before it boils, plus some calipers, like the aluminum 4-6 piston ones Brembo, Stoptech, or SSB sells can dissipate some heat.
3- Reduce unsprung/rotating mass, which is always a good thing.
4- Make modulating the threshold of braking easier. If you guys aren't familiar with threshold braking, its basically braking at the precise limit of your tires. If you know how to do it, you can actually outbrake ABS, which many people think is impossible. ABS doesn't stop the car faster than a trained driver, it simply allows an untrained, moron driver to slam on the brakes and steer simultaneously. It saves a lot of people, not because it stops their vehicles sooner than a properly executed threshold brake, but because it allows ANY driver to make repeatable stops while maintaining control.
I'd highly doubt that on such light-weight cars, such as a Civic, upgrading the rear brakes will do anything but increase rotating mass/unsprung weight, and cost you hard-earned dollars, UNLESS you are racing in HPDE's, or SCCA Club racing.
Basically, upgrading the front brakes makes a lot of sense, since they do 70% of the braking, and upgrading the rears... doesn't.
Spend your money on new shoes, drums, wheel cylinders, fluid, and hardware.
Oh, yeah, and on tires, since they make the biggest difference in what your vehicle can do. I never ceases to amuse me when I see cars that have big power under the hood, good suspension, and upgraded brakes running on Nankang tires because the owner blew his budget on everything else, and suddenly realized "oshit, I need new tires".
End of rant about brakes.
