Whats wrong with f-series?
 

This has been on my my mind for a while. People do h-series swaps into their eg civics because it has 2 cams and greater displacement than b's. But then there is the problem of their sleeves right? You can't run forged internals without sleeving an h series right? So then why don't people swap in f-series? You can run forged internals without sleeving right? and so what if it only has one cam, thats no problem for the guys making 400whp d vtaks. Right? Is there some internal ailment the f-series has? Something that is prone to fail? Maybe their heads suck flow wise? But the vtec f series heads can't flow that bad right? I'm pretty sure an h22 swap kit would swap an f22 straight in wouldnt it? It just seems like it would make a pimp ass sleeper. 2.2l turbo w/forged internals in an 2000lb car, done for as cheap as building a b series??? P.I.M.P

Or am I totally misguided here? Enlighten me.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

If I didn't have so much on my plate, and didn't have the LS/Vtec N/A Half built I would toss the F22 into my EF when my Accord rots/Rusts itself out!!!

I was thinking about a swap like this about 2weeks ago, but I have enough motors laying around already and don't need more projects.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

My cousin turboed his Accord, F22A1

I wouldnt mind doing an F22A6 project. Look on cb7tuner, good bit of guys over there who have done up f22's.

Most kids who do the H series are probably doing it because hands down the h22 owns the f22 in specs. But you can do an F22 head on an H22 block, my buddy Tim wants to do that for a project (and he has already done it in the past).

I dont see the problem, but most people probably want to go from SOHC to DOHC.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Until not too long ago, the forged route wasn't cheap for the F-series motors. People that had them wanted to go the way everyone else did and throw in an H. Lots more people are building their F-series motors now, and a few companies have started making lower priced forged internals for them. There are a few people on everything-honda.com making over 300whp with their f's with just internals and turbo. I know of one a year or so ago that made over 300whp on stock internals. They have potential. Just not as cheap as other honda motors to build. I think Bisi just built a N/A F22 making insane hp numbers. Not sure what the build consisted of, but I think he said it was like 15:1 comp or some crazy ---- like that. Think he might have had an H22 head on it also. Will have to see if I can find the post.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

the problem I had with mine was I could'nt tune and it was'nt very forgiving(ringlands broke), piston melted ont he second one. I know they can last witha good tune and not too much boost. But when I wanted to build the f22 it was super hard to find decent parts at a decent price, probe industrys was the only company I could find that sold decent priced rods for it. Also I've heard that the f22 is'nt balanced very well. I think people don't swap them because the dseries make nearly as much power, have way more info out there, and you don't need a mount kit and different shift linkage to go from one dseries to another.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

If you can put an h22 head on an f22 block, then whats the point of having an hseries at all? (for turbo anyway) So the many issue is aftermarket support then? I guess thats the problem with anything that isn't a b-series honda eh? There has to be other options for decent pistons though right? What are we talkin right now for a set of forged pistons or rods for an f22? Cuz it all sounds pretty damn good still. Even without the forged pistons it seems like you could make some pretty impressive numbers, especially with an h22 head. 300 hp and a fatty torque curve to back it up would be pretty impressive in an eg hatch

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Ease of use for one.

Theres a few other differences between the H series and F series blocks that make the H series better (if we're assuming stock, or if we're going forged internals if we're assuming they're both sleeved). I'm unsure of all of them though.

But yeah, for the regular old accord guy, throwing some forged pistons/rods in his F22 block and throwing an H22 head on it would be awesome.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

The difference between an F22 bottom end and an H22 bottom end is like a B16 versus a B18A/B. Isn't the stroke a lot longer on the F22 than an H22? I know they always complained about a bad rod/stroke ratio and side loading....which is all a bunch of BS IMO.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

f22 blocks can handle 300whp easy on a stock block. there are plenty of guys on cb7tuner running 270whp on their stock block and its been like that for a long ass time too.

f22/h22 is a good swap if done right. just like an ls/vtec, you have to add oil squirters. it has been done before, and proven to make tremendous amount of tq and hp. ----, this frank will pwn any ------- h22.

the problem is the crank. for one, i highly suggest to NOT rev it past 7k, especially if you're boosting and if you dont have oil squirters.

the swap is also only worth it if you have hook ups. if you cant get everything you need for cheaper than an h23 would cost, then you might as well go h23.

you dont need vtec to make power with the f/h engines. you could do just a DOHC head swap. the outcome will be pretty much an h23, but with iron sleeves. ----, an f22/h23 with forged rods and pistons can handle 400whp no problem, on stock sleeves! this of course, with good tuning.

the market for f22 parts are become available more and more, and becoming cheaper. it IS a great engine and i really dont see why people dont do it.

i mean ----, just look at bisi's setup. why didnt he go with a b series?

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

stock block 305 whp f here... just sold the setup...307 tq too....only mod was ARP headstuds..... 15 psi....beat everyday for a year.... would have been a monster in a hatch...

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

The motor Bisi built was talked about in an issue of SCC (July 2005). He used an F22A1: Darton sleeves, knife edge crank, destroked with an H22A crank, 17:1 compression, F22A1 head, ported, welded combustion chambers to help increase compression, doesn't give any information on cam size but it say something about 9,400 rpm in the article. Transmission is a D16A1, final drive of 5.00:1, had to have an adapter plate for the transmission, at the time of the article it was making 341.6hp and 247.6ft/lb at the wheels.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

its like back in the day when I went to the car show in my CRX minime turbo and everybody looked at me like i was a retard for not going B. People just like to follow people. My Crx stomped 99% of the b16's, GSR's and ---- with a homemade turbo 14b kit and it cost less than their preety little carbon fiber hoods. F22/23's can handel some serous power, im mean 300whp-350whp on a bone stock block r u ------- kidding me. ---- i want an accord now. 8.8-9.3:1 compression ratio perfect for boost ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

you'd be much better off swapping one of these engines into a lighter chassis. I mean ----, i run 15.2 with my NA f22b dohc(pretty much an h23-.1 liter. its from the prelude si in jdmland). I'm prolly faster now since that time was run with a basemap(stock ecu i ran 15.5).

I already pwn most B series swaps. I walk on stock or close to stock gsr's without a problem. now imagine all that torque on a chassis thats like 500lbs+ lighter.

highway driving would be fun :y

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

^ With that you could throw that engine in a stripped ed civic hatch with the H series mounts since they're the same. Only problem is you'd need that one adapter for the transmission.

I think it'd be fun in a civic cx or so, even NA.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

f22 are beasts NA. they can easily reach h22 power with about half the money an h22 would cost to swap into an accord.

h23 IM and TB, 272 delta regrind, some head work and tuning should get you enough power to be where im at with my f22b. maybe even faster.

have you seen HondaFan81's red project over at cb7tuner? that's pretty much what he has and most likely puts down way more power than i have(i say most likely becuase i dont know how much i have)

his setup:
http://cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=24996

- F22a1 SOHC head & block
- 152 WHP @ 6600 rpm, 127 WTQ @ 5100 rpm (Mustang roller dyno)
- Powerband is from 4000 - 7000 rpm
- Hondata S200 dyno tuned, running with 87 octane pump gas
- Conservative tune for daily driver 12.2-12.4 AFR
- 26.5 mpg and 350 miles to the tank

Miscellaneous OEM Project-Install Parts >> INSTALLED
Bomz Short-ram Intake >> INSTALLED
Maxbore 67-64mm Taper H23 TB >> INSTALLED
Maxbore Port-matched H23 Plenum to TB >> INSTALLED
CHR H23 P&P Intake Manifold >> INSTALLED
CHR F22 Street P&P Head (stock valvetrain, new valve seals, 3-angle valve job) >> INSTALLED
Delta 272 Camshaft Regrind >> INSTALLED
Kamikaze 4-1 Header w/2.5" collector >> INSTALLED
2.5" Custom Exhaust >> INSTALLED
2.5" Catco High-flow Catalytic Converter >> INSTALLED
22" Magnaflow Resonator >> INSTALLED
OBX Dual-Tip Muffler >> INSTALLED
Accel 8mm Spark Plug Wires (red) >> INSTALLED
PST Front Motor Mount Insert >> INSTALLED
Poly-filled Remaining Motor Mounts >> INSTALLED
Ground Wire Kit >>

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

i've put a lot of research into the f22's, considering i run the f22b2 in my cord. the main reason, few people think to run an accord motor, they just think its a slow grocery getter motor and most people dont look into it. once you get past that, most companies dont make performance parts for the f22's. but, like mentioned above, its becoming more demanded over the last year, so we are starting to see more parts pop up for them. the great thing about the f22, especially the b2, is that its a 8.8:1 comp ratio on a solid block that will take boost like a beast. right about now you can get pistons, rods and sleeves for right around 2,000. so for most people, thats not worth it when an entire kit can cost less than that.

but, with that the f22 becomes bulletproof. one of the great things too is that the f22 holds its numbers as performance increases like a lot of other motors dont. as hp goes up, the tq goes up almost identically. where as on other turbo setups, you can see high hp but pathetic tq numbers. the sohc can pump out some sweet power. another issue some peopel have as well is that it redlines at 6k and shouldnt be pushed a whole lot more than that unless its been worked over. most people dont like a 6k redline, even up to 7k with the internals overhauled.

its a great solid platform that can easily push 225-250hp and 200-225ft/lb with stock internals and with the right parts easily break 300-350hp with a solid 300ft/lb. its just in the baby stages as far as companies and performance parts come to mind

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

This is good stuff, the kind of stuff i like to hear. I really think I'll do it for my next project. The most expensive part should prolly be the swap mounts which really aren't that bad. The motor and tranny itself shouldn't be too bad for me b/c my local mechanic goes to auctions every week and should be able to pick up an accord with body damage for pretty damn cheap 8) . So is the main problem with revving the engine higher due to the crank, or is it the head? or even just shitty rods/rodbolts? If i did this swap, i would prolly just run stock block to start and boost it, and upgrade later if i got bored/blew it up. And turbo should be fairly cheap-- you can modify dsm manifolds can't you? ^-^

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

With the F....you dont really have to sleeve ----... just put in forged pistons, and use the 50mm h crank with h rods.... I was going to, untill I figured ---- it.. Fully built sleeved H with big snail and ported head for me. I had moved my limiter to 7k as well... Motor made GOOD power all the way up to it with the t3/04e 57trim... H23 trans helped a bit too....

The only "problem" I had was the head lift at 12 psi. ARP studs 5 pounds over took care of that.. Ran up to 18 psi on it (was set at 15, then I got a better intercooler... hopped up to 18 ad stayed there).....---- it felt great.... There really is ALOT to say for thew crazy ass torque these thingsmake.


IF I would have stayed Single cam I would opt for the a6 head though... better flow than even the H head... There... I said it... ANd trust me, Ive read about all of it. Ivbe gotten intop sooooo many debates regarding the F motor, and supported it fiercely... I hope that the SOHC god does not strike down apon my ass with fierce vengance for going with the fully buil.t H... It seems the way to go for my HP goals....

BUT THE F IS STILL #1 in my heart..... NO ONE EVER BELIEVED that my car was SIngle slam.... Id litterally have to show them to shut them up.

And alas, the whole setup now sits in the back seat of my car waiting to be shipped to its new rightfull owner tonight... ---- my car is slow.... But... not for long!!!!!

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

if you're gona do a project like this, i recommend you take install new bearings. most f22 engines have over 200k now. its not that much, i know people have boosted their f22's with tons more miles.

but, its just helps ease my mind while im beating on it.

imo, i think the valve train would give out before the crank does. f22b dohc is pretty much the usdm f22 bottom end(with the exception of different pistons because the f22b has 9.2 cr), then it uses an h23 head.

the redline for the engine is 6800. the redline for the sohc f22's is 6200-ish. now, the block is the same, the only difference is the head obviously. that must mean that its the head that limits the rev potential. either way, i would absolutely not rev that ---- past 7k after valve train mods.

but with these engines, theres absolutely no need to rev past 7k to make enormous power. like 5thgenlx said, the tq curve matches, and in most cases, goes past what the hp curve is. so, this is why revving high on these engines is not a necessecity.

and yes, to stay on the hmt route, the dsm manifolds(eclipse, talon, laser) fit the f22a/h23/f22b dohc/f20a head exhaust patterns. you just gota redrill the mouting holes on the manifold, but thats cake.

they DO NOT fit f22b1 or f22b2, only F22a1/4/6, h23, f22b dohc, and f20a/b.

oh, all f22's, with the exception of the f22b dohc, are 8.8 cr.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

which h are you talking about? i know for a fact that it does NOT flow as well as the h22. the a6 flows the best out of all f22's. why do you think there is a huge hp gain when you swap on a dohc head? its certainly not because compression is raised(no head swap on an f block will raise compression unless it has been milled). it is because those heads flow better.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

7k would be fine with me, thats all I rev my b18b to anyway so no difference there. And as far as bearings, if the mileage called for it a mild rebuild wouldn't be a big deal anyway, and would give the opportunity to throw in some arp rod bolts and headstuds. Ok another question-- would using the h 50mm crank destroke the f series, hence giving it higher compression and less displacement? I dunno if I would do that, especially if people are getting good results with the stock f crank. And the h22 head would prolly be an availability/cost decision -- if i found a good deal i'd go for it

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

the f22 mains are also 50mm. if you were to use f22 rods, you compression would drop to 8.5:1.

but if you used stock h22 rods, then you would run into valve to pistons clearance problems.

what would be the reason to swap that crank in? to simply rev higher? you would have to install some oil squirters, and ive heard its kinda hard to do that on f22's.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

so no downfall to swapping an h crank-- you just get a better crank straight up? sorry for all the questions, i prolly should do some more research myself. I just think an f swap is pimp as ----, and uber HMT, as it is a cheaper alternative to get big displacement. hahahaha big for a honda anyway. Weird how we get so wrapped up in displacement differences from 1.5 to 1.6 to 1.8 to 2.0 and 2.2 to 2.3 lol the biggest difference is less .8 liters. But somehow still makes a crazy difference. weird.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Im not gonna get int a debate about it.. The ports flow better. Period.. Ive talked to BISI about ity at lenghth. He has done extensive research (and testing) On a bench even. I take his word for it. Weve rapped in person, as well as on the phone for a while about it.... The ports flow better... The stock setup of a head does not dictate the true potential of its design ::)

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Thats why You can use the H crank.... duh O0

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Maybe it is just me, but if I'm through all the trouble to be making power I'm just gonna go ahead and rebuild the thing anyways so I don't have to worry about bearings or rings etc.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

i edited my post. i added some more info and i think i answered your questions.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

You have to use custom pistons wioth the pins raised.... Weisco makes them for one...... Chad ran em in his 335 whp F22b1---with H rods and crank.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

oh no doubt the head has huge potential. im just comparing stock vs stock.

yes, the ports alone are better flowing than that of the h, you shoulda stated that when you said that. overall, it doesnt, not stock anyways.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

I know.


but i dont think he's gona go through all that trouble just so he can rev higher. especially since he's trying to go hmt style.

and i dont know who chad is.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

maybe this should be moved to hybrid/tech section.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Its cool man, Im nopt trying to be a dick... I was so so so happy with my setup.... I have been a true believer in the f as well... Its truly one of the most underestimated as far as potential. In my opinion, There is not a better honda motr stock to boost that can be had for the price.... If only they would have come with forged pistons!!!! WOW!!!!

LOL

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

its cool man.

but yea, i agree with you. I love this engine platform, and do wish it came with forged internals.

Im currently working on f22a6 swap into an cx hatch.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Damn howd I let this tread buy....

I just picked up a prelude in the spring, and have been, "collecting" F engines for an upcoming build next year. The BEST thing I love about these engines is that they are CHEAP. I just bought a complete F22 for 60$ from a kid who did an H22 swap. Noone wants these engines, and its really fun to find deals on them.

I myself am just trying to learn a bit more about the engine, but from what Ive seen by taking mine apart, I like it. Like a D block only bigger, with larger ports and intake mainifolds, and way better torque numbers. Im in the process of turboing the prelude's motor and its damn nice for a budget setup since you dont have to make a manifold for it [mitsu mani]. But next year Im going to build one f the blocks Ive got for a Holset setup....

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Allright since I killed this thread....I'll drop a question

Why the H crank, other then H rods are cheaper and easier to find....wouldnt this raise up your compression? It shortens the stroke length right...so is that what the purpose is...to keep the stroke shorter?

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

Bisi did it to destroke the motor allowing lower pistons speeds and higher rpms.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

yea, on his 390whp NA beast.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

I can see the need to rev high on an NA build, but I've never put much into the high RPM = high Power with a turbo build, is there an advantage to destroking a turbo build F22?

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

I've known 'Cisco for quite a long time and I've been following his N/A build up since '04 I think when I signed up on CB7tuner. I've seen both of his cars in person and raced both of them on the highway. I recently did a couple of small runs on the highway against his red car in my HF B16 CRX and the outcome was basically he would hang with me for a few seconds then I'd pull away from him on a run from 55mph or so.

If he had a different transmission in it the story might be different, but the 4th gear in a F22 transmission is like over drive. The Y1 transmission that I have gave me a huge advantage on the highway, but the initial torque and power of his engine was enough to stay with me until the top end of my B16 and the gearing of the Y1 transmission allowed me to pull away.

Can't wait to see how his white project turns out.

Re: Whats wrong with f-series?
 

hmm, sounds just like what some crx here with a b16 did to me.

Cisco needs to get to the track.