Rant about turbo kits
 

Well i was bored and i went on the honda-tech FI board...someone else is putting out another god damn $3k turbo kit. I mean jesus christ do you think there are enough precision $3k turbo kits....

This is what i think, why cant they make a sub $1500 T3 junkyard style turbo setup. ------- get a deal w/ a turbo rebuilder and go to town. There are a hell of a lot of people that would be willing to spend $1500 for brand new turbo kit that will give them their sub 300whp requirements. Of coarse this would be with like a POS FMU or whatever...but i still think its ---- how no company or vender can put out a god damn turbo kit that is intercooled, doesnt have rubber oil lines, and doesnt have piece of ---- parts. If we can do turbo setup for $800 with used parts why cant they manage to do new turbo setups with the same components for $1500. ------- aggravating there is no simple cheap turbo kit for the people that dont need gay t3/t4. not that t3/t4's are gay, its just not necessary for sub 300whp. maybe im off the mark here...but whatever, this is what i think. I would have been boosted 3 months ago if there was a simple kit available where all i had to do is swap the FMU for a higher quality fuel management and it cost about $1200-1500. Thats my opinion and im sticking to it.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

Yeah! I ------- hate turbo kits also. Every turob kit out there comes with crap for fuel management. If I am going to spend a bunch of money I am going to get exactly what I want. Custom/HomeMade is the only way to go.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

Ever priced a NEW turbo?

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

Im ------- baffled why in the year (almost) 2004 turbo kits dont include ROM's. I realize ecu's would have to be socketed, but thats no big deal. I mean lets take what was FMAX, now Turbonetics... they went so far as to include a secondary injector driver, 2 secondary injectors and all the sizzledizzlerizzle needed to make it work.

......... or devel your own/farm it out/use the free tools and include it for exactly $1.50, or whatever a 29c256 runs in bulk qty and call it good.

I understand why they DO what they DO, but for a more 'advanced' user (as most of HMT is) its assclownery at its best.


edit: and I agree with 88crx, there are certain unavoidable costs associated with a *new* turbo kit.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

My point is mainly this...why cant some douche bag seller ------- provide something for people that dont want to spend $3k for a precision this and that. I can get together a ------- turbo kit for around $1500 with basically everything you need...i dont get why a dealer cant do it for $1200

This is what i think the turbo kit should include in that $1200 shipped to your ------- door step!

Rebuilt T3 Turbo, choice of .42/.48,.48/.60,.60/.63(~$300 shipped on ebay)
Cast Manifold (b or D series)($200-250 for a log manifold, cast should be less)
2.5" DP(A/C and P/S) or a 3" DP(no A/C)($50-70)
Some BOV, maybe a new DSM 1g one or something...i really dont pay much attention to BOV's(Say $50-75)
25"x6"x3" FMIC w/ 2.5" inlets and outlets($200-225)
2.5" Charge pipes to fit an integra or civic($100-150)
Walboro 255 Fuel pump($80)
Cleaned and Rebalanced/reconditioned 450cc Injectors(im not exactly sure how this could work)($75-80)
Stealthmode Oil Line kit with that new fitting he has out and that T that allows to keep the stock oil sensor(TunerToys)($110)
Pipe w/ Air Filter($40)
FMU(BLAH!!!! but you need to give em soemthing)($80-100)
and all the misc fittings and ----($50)

Total: ~$1455...im sure some dealer can do better than me..
If I can do that based on using ebay and various sellers selling stuff in forums, i dont see why one dealer cant get off their fat ass and do it.

There is the completion to my rant.\

BTW: My family has been in buisness forever pretty much...standard markup on any item is 2 or 3 times. So anything you are buying from a dealer...they bought it for a third of that price.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

usualy you won't use 450s and a FMU, add $150 bux and put a SAFC in instead of the FMU, and there you go, HTK, hacked turbo kit

or if you wanna use the FMU, subtract the money for the injectors, and blow, you've got a turbo kit, (don't for the the missing link and/or check valves...

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

dont trip on how others make money, you abviously see a way to make some cash. you should do rather than bitching about how others dont.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

but you are not taking into account that although it only costs $1500 to make it, you need to mark it up.

I've been thinking about this for a long time now and I think it's possible to pull off, it just needs to somehow be cheaper then that. why not HF's and adaptors (H-Auto has a million of them that they'd sell in bulk probably relatively cheap)? rebuild the turbo yourself? new DSM BOV's are $80 a piece, in bulk could a name brand one be cheaper? The hack would be a better way to go with fuel management, i wouldn't feel right selling kids FMU's and on top of that they'd have the tunability. just sell it with a set of resistors in a pretty box. the lines can be had from stevemode for cheap, fuel line for coolant is not bad (if the turbo is water cooled in the first place) hose clamps, zip ties, thermalflex would sell silicone couplers in bulk. magnaflow sells mandrel in bulk. someone could do the welding. it's very possible. I wish I/WE had the start up capitol to do it.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

If I was bored with my life and wanted to start a turbo co I would do the following:

1.) I would use Bosch BOV's on a 'low dollar kit' like the VW TDI's use. They're like 40 dollars NEW, I imagine in bulk they'd be high 20 dollar range.

2.) Also bosch is who makes the VAST majority of all fuel injectors.. I have no idea how much they'd charge for 450's or the like in bulk. I would try and get a quanity of both peak&hold and saturated so people wouldnt need to wire in resistors. Just to make installation easier.

3.) Also I'd include ROM's and donate say 25 bucks off each sale to PGMFI.org and include a ROM for COMMON setups. I'm talking D16Z6's and the like. If you want something exotic, ... go elsewhere.

4.) Manifolds would be cast, and farmed out to slave labor china just like DRAG and everyone else does... cheap :P

5.) Turbos, internally gated who knows what... t3's of some sort probobly.

6.) Charge piping I'd try to farm out too. Whoever makes those bunk AEM knockoff CAI's on ebay would be glad to have another customer I bet.

7.) Intercooler, I don't know. I'm sure I could get someone to crank out me small IC's for not much scratch fitted for my applications.

Anyway if you could figure out the logistics of all that, put together say 5-10 turbo kits initially and see how they sell/are recieved I bet you could have a successful little company.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

all im gonna say is this...

you think it costs honda 20k to build a civic Si?

go build one at their quality. see how much it costs you in R&D etc..

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

Well and an FYI i sell turbo kits for the 3g accord with engine managment exhuast WAIC etc etc etc. you can get what you want a hwole kit however. the basics DP, manifold, font mount run like $600 then you can do the rest. so yeah people are selling turbo kits for less then $3k but ive got 1yr worth of development in mine and mosty all of the profits right back into my car.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

BINGO! It seems like most people use what they can find tomake their hmt's whereas a "real bona-fide turbo making company" uses math and ----. ;D

But you're ind of right... there should be like a DX version of an Si turbo kit.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

my pieced together kit ran me around 2600 with mostly new parts and a zdyne

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

This is why I say custom/homemade is the only way to go. He got a complete turbo kit with a stand alone fuel management system for the price of other turbo kits.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

heres the break down.

drag gen3 mani
t3 48/60
turbo xs type h bov
2.5 inch charge piping
2.5 inch downpipe
custom coach frontmount intercooler
zdyne standalone ecu
dsm 450cc injectors
autometer boost and air/fuel guages
hks turbo timer
all couplers fitting and hardware.

everything new except the drag gen 3 mani right around 2600
show me a kit for that price that can compete component wise....aint happenin

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

I think Gimpy sees my point. My point is, the setup both he and i named off(his is better b/c his BOV is new and he knows a good place to be getting injectors)

Basically what im saying is...everyone on this site using a T3 pretty much has the same setup...I mean manifold type varies and so does choice of BOV...but i would say about 75% of the setups on this site are with T3 turbos, HF manifolds,cast, or a log manifold, 450cc injectors, and a 25x6x2/3 FMIC....i bet there are a lot of companies that would be more than happy to bend out DP's as you order them and weld on a flange...and There are plenty of turbo rebuild companies that would love a "big" account...

I just dont understand why no one has done this. Every god damn honda user in america looking to make their car go faster would do a form of gimpy or my idea(my idea isnt original just based on nearly every T3 turbo setup) if they could get 70-100whp for under $1500. I dunno, i guess my rant is mainly how Vendors are dumbasses and are putting out what everyone wants but cant afford when they should be putting out what everyone can afford.

Oh, an addition to the setup would be some sort of manual boost controller(until ECU roms can get a good way to use the EBC w/o using A/C)

I think HMT should start a buisness.... ;)

PS: Gimpy, good work fixing up some of the scripts in uberdata, next step is support up to atlest 1 bar ;D

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

You'd also have to factor in the gasket sealer/ gaskets needed for it to be a complete kit.

There are people on here that make flanges for log manifolds, a faq on how to do them, and people that would weld 10 up on the cheap. You got all the lines. DP wouldn't be a problem just go through the same people with the log manifolds. Sit on here for a couple months and buy up 10 turbos and rebuild them. FMU bulk, BOV BULK, intercoolers can be made here too...

It sounds like a good "little" idea. You would have to scout out some good deals to get the cost down. And then there's the fact that to do ten kits you'll need about $15000 to start.

Ofcourse you could probably get ten manifolds welded up for $1000. DP's I guess another 500-1000. No idea how much a fmu and bov bulk would be, I guess 80% of retail so about another 1000. You might be able to swing getting all the turbos and rebuilt for $2000 with serious scouting. Then the intercoolers I don't know, so I'll guess 1500 for ten quick but effective ones. factor in about 500 for the lines, 500 for some charge pipes in bulk and 500 for boost gauges, then 1000 for misc crap.

so you're looking at about 9000 dollars to start. and if you sold for 1500 a piece that's a 6000 dollar profit. Which SHOULD got straight back into the business to get it breathing.


That's a hefty chunk of change and alot of time spent finding these deals.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

you also need one hefty disclaimer...the other reason people shell out so much moeny is becasue usually it is to a reputable company with a warrantee (i think only if a shop puts it in?)

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

if a company is selling a turbo on ebay....expect total cost to be approx half what they are selling it for....maybe a third since its ebay....

I'm not saying we should do it, but all these places are doing precision turbo kits and ----...im just saying why cant a T3 budget turbo kit be done....less work for me ;D

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

for charge pipes you could just buy front mount intakes (the intercooler "looking" ones) in bulk, then you'd have charge pipes for $50 a piece, with connectors and all you'd need is a u bend for the other side and a u bend for the filter. oh yeah, you'd need to buy filters, probably from the same guy you get the frount mount intakes from

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

check out this one BigWig... he says hes got a B series for about 1,500 but not it doesnt include intercooler or FMU or injectors etc... *SHRUG* thought i'd show u

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2447584865

B16Drag

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

man.. you gotta look at the big picture. yah yah you got most if not all of the pieces for the kit. but you forgot a few things...

1. You need a shop of some sort. U gunna do all this outta your home? if yes, then you're probably going to have to quit your daytime job. wait, you gotta pay hydro, gas, water, mortgage.
2. Employees? They have bills too.
3. Packaging, would you buy something in a damm potatoe sack?
4. All the "professional" kits look cherry. so you gotta pay to get your used ---- cleaned.
5. shipping? you gonna pay or the customer?
6. profit. i dont think greddy wants to be a charity. or break even. they're in it for the money.
7. and greddy, turbonetics, etc, dont deal directly w/ customers. Usually there's a middle man adding 25% himself!

Like I said before. you think it costs HONDA INC 20k to make a civic Si? hell no, I bet it costs them less then 5k.

Re:Rant about turbo kits
 

most companies who make turbo kits are not really targeting the demographic of guys who know their stuff when it comes to turbo's. Their market is one of two areas: guys who don't know jack about turbo's and would just like a bolt-on setup, or kits for cars that don't traditionally have easy methods for custom turboing. Think about a car like the Miata, where there is no used manifold out there that bolts up as easy as our HF manifolds. These companies don't really care what kind of kit we want, because as guys have already pointed out, it's not where their biggest profit lies. Why spend all the R&D on such an area as cheap HMT kits when they can make more on basic, fast-selling kits for the riceboy or "tough to tune" car? Besides, Greddy has a kit out for Civics and it's under $1500, it just sucks by our standards. It's a "don't even dare crank up the boost" kind of kit, and you'd have to replace several things to make some serious power. I think the two things that set prefab kits apart that we never get w/ HMT kits is a new turbo and a perfectly matched turbo manifold (meant for the block and the specific turbo).