machine work
 

Well i went to a machine shop that my instructor recommended, said they do awesome work. They do a lot of hondas too which is also nice. Here's the prices he quoted me, wanted to see what you guys think. He said this is absolute maximum pricing depending on what needs to be done...

Block wash, bore + hone, cut deck (if needed) = $240
crank inspect + polish = #35
valve job, mill, and assemble with supplied parts= $220
balance (if requested) = $275

I plan on using SRP pistons and maybe eagle rods (or tuner toys rods), so i don't think i need the balancing, thought that stuff was mostly for domestics.

As for the valve train i'm going to get ITR valves and springs for the intake, and then swap my intake springs to the exhaust side, heard it makes for a nice combination. I'm keeping the stock cams beacuse the gen 2 are pretty aggressive and i don't feel like getting type r cams.

thoughts?

EDIT< i think this is in the wrong place, sorry. Hybrid forum maybe?

Re: machine work
 

I paid more than that and wasnt happy with the quality of work performed.
I beleive the price is fair, especially if it is done well.

Re: machine work
 

heres what ive got for $160

micropolish crank
deck block and head
allign hone

put the motor together yourself and save some money. Most good pistons and rods are machined within a gram of eachother. No real need for balancing unless its an all out racing engine.

Re: machine work
 

Not sure on 'good' prices. But for comparison I had my B18A1 Decked, Honed, and Hot tanked for $85 out the door. The decking/honing was so good I actually cut myself on the cylinder wall when trying to hold it steady while driving(if you consider that 'good').

Re: machine work
 

Not every machine shop is dirt cheap. The prices are fair. Hot tanked at most shops means some kid in the back with purple power and a jet washer

Re: machine work
 

lol, yeah.

Re: machine work
 

seems about right

Re: machine work
 

so no need on the balancing? i've heard different opinions. Anyone have any experience with SRP pistons and eagle or TT rods?

Re: machine work
 

when you put dieeferent weight pistons and rods on a motor you need to balance it, not match the pistons/rods to each other, its to balance the counter weights to the weights of the pistons/rods by removeing material or adding mallory metal

Re: machine work
 

Im not clear, but what about the fact that he's using TT rods, and SRP pistons? Wouldnt they differ in weight?

Re: machine work
 

Not sure where you got this done but you better hope they had a clue.... I'll put a bet on that the deck surface is not totally right, I'll bet if you measure from the crankshaft center line to the deck surface every measurement will be off. The set up time to deck a block is up there. A good machine shop also deburrs all it's work so there are no sharp edges on a deck suface. No shop I know of does the work right for that price. Hell hot tanking alone goes for 40.00 around here...

Re: machine work
 

oh god looks like it's time for some WWHD

what would hotrex do :P

Re: machine work
 

What are gen 2 cams? If it is stock ----, like Hype-R, they are not remotely aggressive.

Since you are posting to a turbo forum, depending on what power you are shooting for, worthless stock LS cams would probably get the job done.

He wouldn't hot tank his block, or clean it in any way. :1

Re: machine work
 

he is too busy not shiping manifolds to ht and td16 to visit

Re: machine work
 

ha ------ owned. I was wondering why josh hasn't been around lately. Did his devcon paperweight scare him out of the HMT game or somehting?

The SiR generation 2 cams, since that's the motor. The specs are pretty decent. Same as the USDM Si althoguh the intake duration is 240 instead of 230. But with boost i don't see why i shouldn't be able to make power above the stock rev limit. I just wanna hit 8500 reliabily (well mostly). Power goal at this point is eventually 300whp on my 48/60 60 trim, although i'll probably swap the housing for a 63 and cross my fingers. Daily i'll just run it low cause i'm a -----.

Re: machine work
 

ALL B16 cams are some faggot ----. You are looking at it as having ten degrees more duration compared to the old OBD0 B16's with the crude oil sprayer bars and (comparatively) shoddy casting. What you don't know is that stock LS cams have a 230 duration... 240 sounds less than impressive. My LS billets have a 250 duration, meaning I have to live with them all of the time and not just in the upper revs because I have a faggot good idle cam profile, and they hardly fluctuate at 900 rpm idle. It's not much of a duration, and not much lift.


Boost extends camshaft duration. With the T67 on the 2.0/VTEC, there was power at 9500 rpms on stock B16 cams. With a tiny OEM "stage 1" turbine and tiny "stage 1" .48/.63 housing, there probably won't be. You need larger plenum, and larger compressor, to raise your revlimit and have there be any power. The B16 I tuned last week with .50 T3/T04E immediately dropped in power past 8000 rpms, just like stock B16s do, according to Crome DynoTools.

Re: machine work
 

yeah i kinda realized that but the t3 is just for me to get things going. Besides i've calculated that it should be relatively efficent to 17 #'s at redline. Also the 230 duration i got from the b16a2, which was found on the 99-00 Si :-*

Re: machine work
 

I have nothing against maxing out a .60 T3's compressor (300+ whp), but I have everything against strangling an engine against that tiny turbine wheel/housing. Compare OEM T3 "stage 1" turbine wheel to the commonplace "stage 3" unit found on the hybrids sometime, you'll see what I mean. It bottlenecks the engine, holds thermal mass against the head + exhaust valves, and you *will* run into problems at some point.

Chris Kelly was running 14 psi on his CRX, with that exact same turbo, and it lasted a good minute (6 months?) before ring land ownage. A bigger turbine and she'd have been fine at those power levels, with no appreciable loss of driveability.

Re: machine work
 

yeah i get what you're saying, but wouldn't this only happen at high- rpm, high boost conditions? Like i'm expecting it to be a midrange monster with that turbo on it, and it's only until i get a hybrid.

Re: machine work
 

these are ----- ass rippoff prices for machine work
b18 block bored to 81.5mm 300eu about $400
hot tanked. 50 eu about $60
gsr girdle align hone 150eu about$200
head was bought built so I guess it dont count. but it was fully loaded. 5 angle valve, pocket work. crower springs and titanium retainers spring height for skunk2 cams. ferrea 5mm oversized valves.and keepers.all $700.
motorl assembly was done by me

Re: machine work
 

Det is most prevalent at tq peak, not high rpm. Now google turbine pressure curves and watch your blood pressure rise.

Re: machine work
 

meaning? ehaust mani pressure vs. intake mani pressure ???

Re: machine work
 

Yup. What exhaust pressure is like as the turbo spools, during operation at various pressure ratios + various rpms, etc.

Re: machine work
 

There's the most heat buildup at high rpm though

Re: machine work
 

How? The cylinders fill less, so there is less heat produced per cycle, but the piston skirts are seeing just as much contact area to transfer heat out of the chamber.

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

Re: machine work
 

There's less heat produced per cycles but there are a lot more cycles.

Re: machine work
 

???


Vizard did a big fat lot of work on detonation in the 70's, really extended on Ricardo's ---- and published it both for engineers as well as diseminated it to the laymen as best as possible. Long story short, there are three factors that directly relate to detonation: heat, time, and density. In high rpm Honduh operation, density is lacking - check Random Asshat's thread about his dad's car @ 17 psi - 465 whp, 279 tq, perfect example. In high rpm operation time required to both transfer heat (as well as detonate) is lacking.

The heat generation itself isn't as great as at naturally occurring aka not boosted peak torque, where detonation is most prevalent due to greatest cylinder filling at the lowest possible rpm aka highest dwell time. Since combustion speed of isooctane based fuels stays more or less proportional to piston speed, there isn't a higher "duty cycle" of heat generation vs heat dissipation in high rpm operation vs lower rpm, for a given tq.

It's a shame I took down Ricardo's High Speed Internal Combustion Engine, you need to leech + read it. Ask SiShane on HT if he still has a copy, leed here might, otherwise I will get it to you.

Re: machine work
 

More fuel gets burned at high speed, hence more heat .

Re: machine work
 

Burn takes less time, so there is less time for it to transfer to the engine before going out the exhaust. Thermodynamic transfers are functions of time. Also, as exhaust density goes up combustion chamber surface area remains unchanged... 95 percent of those hot exhaust molecules never come in contact with chamber surface to transfer that "more heat from more fuel" which is incorrect anyway as fuel follows tq not hp and rpm. Go ask for the 75 year old basic engineering text already, spoonfeeding basicknowledge into the Grand Canyon is getting tedious.

Re: machine work
 

and i assume that's why pulling in 5th is bad ???

Re: machine work
 

Yeah and heat going into the exhaust doesnt get dissipated partially into the head? ::)

Re: machine work
 

If you think high rpms generate more heat, set your revlimit at 6K and see where your knock limit falls on pumpgas. Have fun.

Re: machine work
 

baldur, not to be a dickface, but are you just completly ignorant.? Basic knowledge of thermal energy will show jd is in the "in" he knows exactly what he is talking about. Just do some fast searchs and what you will come up with will back jd up even more.

Re: machine work
 

Let's see what engineering masters Lotus and their engine simulation says about my theories vs yours.
http://www.foo.is/~baldur/head-heattransfer.png

The red line is the heat transfer into the cylinder head.

Now lets change the parameters and observe piston temperature and rate of heat transfer.
http://www.foo.is/~baldur/pistonheat.png

It's just basic ------- engineering that the more POWER the engine is making the more heat is dissipated by combustion. Added on top is the heat created by more friction at higher revs.

Re: machine work
 

Which engine? Naturally asphixiated? Apples to oranges?

I'm also leery of the claimed rate of thermal transfer is? ie - how engine temps spike and reach peak about a full *minute* after you turn off the ignition key... which doesn't even account for the fact that kW is an expression of power, not of transfer over time :S

Lotus, huh? URLs come back to a dir under your name. Such mastery.

#1 rule of racing is read Ricardo's High Speed Combustion Engine, because you aren't going to figure out anything Sir Harry didn't, but you might just ---- everything up if you don't know what he does.

Re: machine work
 

Yes the imaes are under my directory because I made them with Lotus engine simulator.
The model I made is naturally aspirated, not that it matters on this subject.
kW is an expression of power in any form. As an expression of energy over time it becomes kW/[insert unit of time measure here].

Re: machine work
 

HA that's great.

Wow my thread just turned into advanced engine physics

Re: machine work
 

Awesome!

Then print me up some charts with your AdVaNcEd EnGiNe SiMuLaToR that expresses heat transfer over time.

Nice to note that while the computer sim plots "heat transfer" to piston as going through the roof, the actual piston temperature barely rises - ah, so it does transfer it's heat via skirt to the bore, much as I stated.

If temperatures go through the roof with hp to the point, then why oh why do people shoot for a lower bmep and high revs as a tried and true method for sidestepping knocklimit? It's what Smokey Yunick did with his DIY destroked SBC entry into F1... it's what is going on in every B-VTEC on the face of the planet...

Wait, here, I'll connect the dots for you:

The comment that started all this hoo-rah...

And a lot more cycles to dissipate heat. Applied common sense.

Logical red herring. More fuel is more coolant - are you sure you wouldn't like to discuss air mass ingested? It in no way touches on how you get such a huge "heat buildup" in the high rpms...

And I explained to you that heat transfer takes ----------ing TIME, son, as does detonation.

Here's where you fucked up - you've been interpreting the data to mean what you want it to mean (read much Heywood or Taylor, hrm?) but you forgot to edit out the bits that disprove you: heat transfer curve goes up geometrically, but the predicted heat of the piston is barely rising - the heat dissipation I was speaking of.

None of which touches on the time/temperature/density nature of detonation, disproves any statement I have made, yet all of it is a big fat ------- waste of time.

PS if you want a *correct* engine simulation performed, contact Per Andersson at Linkoping University in Sweden. He won't come off the software, but is more than happy to run a few engine models to help a ------ out. AFAIK, they have the most advanced software engine sim in the world - the archived and publicly available masters/doctoral thesis and published papers that they host for the world to read for free far eclipse most of the SAE publications of the last decade (I'm thinking of the blurry half blackened xerox copy O-ring paper, last SAE paper I paid for and will ever pay for).

Remedial engine physics, maybe.

Re: machine work
 

that took long enough... owned. Dont ---- with JD, the man certinly knows his physics. I just got a C in Phy III :(

Re: machine work
 

Heat transfer and temperature don't have a linear relationship.
The piston temperature goes up by 60 degrees celsius.
This heat isn't dissipated by the movement of the parts, so the revs don't affect heat transfer into the cylinder wall. There's more oil being thrown at the pistons at high revs though
Heat dissipation rate is purely a function of the temperature differential. A hotter piston will dissipate its heat faster than a colder one.
At low to mid revs, pressure is the primary cause of detonation. As the revs go up, the heat becomes a more and more significant factor. How significant depends a lot on the combustion chamber design.
Now, of course this only applies when you have a steady load so the engine can actually build up some heat.

My final point is: this is why (improperly) modified engines primarily blow up when doing top speed runs or other situations where they see full throttle and high revs for a prolonged period.