hw-itb
 

if i want to make athe hw-itb https://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_p...itb/index.html
what do i need to upgrade in my engine it's a stock b16a2

Re:hw-itb
 

nothing internally, just do as the write up says, you may want to get a vafc or some way to tune it

Re:hw-itb
 

accually i just completed a HMT ITB set-up on a B16. it was very very simple, and no tuning was required. we also used honda 954 throttle bodies, which was in a sense a plug and play system. if you need any furthrur help, ask.

but, yeah, most everything you need to know is in the link above. the MAP sensor is plug and play, if you use honda TB. BTW, we did also make our own manifold. the stock IM worked, but we had a SMALL vacume leak. nothing big, but it was minor. we just tried to perfect it a little with the homemade manifold.

Re:hw-itb
 

no tuning is required, but to get the pull potential of the itb's you would want to get it tuned, it's taking in a lot more air than your regular cai.

Re:hw-itb
 

yeah, your right, but my point was no tuning was really necessary. It did run a little rich, but it wasnt to much. We didnt hook any A/F meters on it, but it seemed to run just fine.


I had a D16 ITB set-up that was almost complete....long story. :'(

Re:hw-itb
 

If I was going to do a ITB setup on my b16 i would put a set of ITR cam's in. It would make for a decent All motor setup.
steve

Re:hw-itb
 

steve. i have been told and read many times that ITR cams are useless unless you have the valve train to go with them.

Re:hw-itb
 

im gonna have to punk some frona bike next time i go to the junk yard... ;D

Re:hw-itb
 

Lots of people make good power with ITR cams and stock valve train. ITR cams arnt aggressive enough to need aftermarket valve train.
steve

Re:hw-itb
 

here was my ITB set-up.

https://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/...8150#msg248150

I had in it what I sold it for.

I think was $150, dont remeber.....

I got the ITB's from Ebay, everything else came from Napa.
I had the honda CBR600 F4i throttle bodies.


edit
check out my HM vacume log...LOL. it was ghetto, but worked exelent!

Re:hw-itb
 

Your HM vacume log is a work of art. :-X

Re:hw-itb
 

what do you do with the coolant lines, IACV and all that, just loop them??

Re:hw-itb
 

the IACV just hang that fucker somewhere, zip tie it off. NO COOLANT GOES THROUGH IT! -NOTHING THAT WILL SPILL OUT OR ANYTHING!

Re:hw-itb
 

To get peak hp with the ITB's you have to tune it, yes it will run off a stock ecu but not nearly at its fullest potential. Steve's right I'd go with a set of ITR cams and the itb's would probably work out pretty good for a budget build.

So EGYSOL, have we chaunged our mind and no longer going turbo after that long ass thread about what t3 turbo you want to get? A HM-ITB setup is going to require a custom intake head flange (or modified stock one) a set of ITB's, and something to tune it with.

Good luck,

Jeff

Re:hw-itb
 

I love it when people make a thread and never come back to it.

Re:hw-itb
 

LOL...thats a pet peeve of mine too, especially when you go to lengths trying to explain something.

are there any dynos or good sites yall know of showing the gains or advantages to ITBs on Hondas?

Re:hw-itb
 

So I gotta question...

How is it that 4 TBs off of an 1100cc motorcycle, can flow enough to provide sufficient air to a 1600cc car? Just doesn't seem like it will work to maximum efficiency.

I guess you'd have to compare the square area of the stock TB, to the combined square area of the four individual TBs. Does that sound right?

Craig

Re:hw-itb
 

the motorcycle's revving twice as fast also. so you figure the air intake for an 1100cc motorcycle at 12000 rpm vs the air intake of a 1600cc car at 7000 rpm. that and 4 40-45mm throttle bodies are larger then one 60 mm one. it's like useing 16 smaller valves in a head versus 8 large ones. most motorcycle itb's have secondary butterflys also, which compensate for the larger TB area at low rpms

Re:hw-itb
 

the surface area of a 62mm throttle body is appx 97mm2 whereas the surface area of 4 40mm throttle bodies add up to 251mm2 (equating to the surface area of a 160mm throttlebody)

Re:hw-itb
 

*Raises hand*


Teacher, can i go home now ! that was a good lesson

Re:hw-itb
 

so i guess you do use math after school

Re:hw-itb
 

If only I could find a practical use for that calculus 2 I took a couple years back.

Re:hw-itb
 

i can't find the turbo i need we only have stock volvo turbos here no one told me what i use and i think it'll take a long time to put the turbo on so untill then i'll stick bor the ITB if i can really understand

where to cut in my intake "use my injectors?"
+where does the map sensor hoock or do i cut after the map sensor i can get almost any motorcycle throtel so which on would b best ?

Re:hw-itb
 

there is a pretty good write up on the main page

https://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_p...itb/index.html

Re:hw-itb
 

this is the best homemade ITB thread on the net that I have found.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=775280

Re:hw-itb
 

Dang Bambi,

That was some great math and education you laid down there. I really hadn't thought about the 12K RPM consideration either. That is almost twice the RPM of the, 1.6L Engine.

So now I have another question...or two.

Is there a way to calculate the maximum possible airflow through the stock 62mm TB versus 251mm of the ITB? I can't remember if it is a hard number for a given pressure and opening.....

Wracking my cells...Craig

Re:hw-itb
 

yes, there is a way. it has more to do with velocity then it does pressure. if you take pressure as a constant we'll say one atm. (14.7 psi, not boost but normal atmospheric pressure) and density also as a constant ( which would vary upon altitude among other things) you can determine how much air will be going through a throttle body in cfm.
however, any amount of air can go through any amount of space when forced to do so. a given engine will only flow a certain amount of cfm naturally the only thing that we can do is open up the flow. say for example a given motor at wide open throttle with a completely free flowing intake tract flows 120 cfm, that motor with 1 62mm throttle body will only flow, let say, 111 cfm because of restriction put on the air flow by the throttle body and the intake manifold. or the same motor with 4 40 mm throttle bodies and no intake manifold, might flow, let's say, 117 cfm. The motor is the limiting factor, not the throttlebody. If you had a motor that at wide open throttle with a completely free flowing intake tract flows 150 cfm might flow 125 w/ a 62mm throttle body, but with 4 40mm throttle bodies it has the room to breathe that it needs and might flow more near it's free flow capabilities. the size of the throttlebody will make the most difference on the motor that is bottlenecking to get the air through.

did that all come out anywhere near comprehensible? :-\

I hope it made sense. I didn't take AP chem for nothing.

Re:hw-itb
 

damn smart bastard ;D

Re:hw-itb
 

Excellent Bamboo!

That makes total sense to me. Once you add boost to the equation, it makes it a lot easier to get larger amounts of air through the same diameter opening. Simple enough, now that you have edified me.

So when you switch from the big single TB feeding four cylinders, to individuals, you get rid of the need for the big air chamber behind the TB, right? The air chamber is there so that the individual cylinders are not sucking air from each other, correct?

So it would be possible to turbo an ITB setup, you'd just need to pipe the charge air into four locations, instead of just one.

Thanks Bamboo. (it's Drew, right?)

Craig

Re:hw-itb
 

lets just say I have a top secret project in the works right now that will tackle that subject. You'll all be pleased when it is unveiled

BTW yes, that is why you don't need the plenum on the 4 TB's. 4 throttle bodies is kind of the same reason why we have tuned equal length turbo manifolds. the plenum acts in the same way that a log manifold does, where as ITB's act like a tubular, merge collected one (only reversed).

Re:hw-itb
 

So back in the day....

When I dealt with N/A V8s, runner shape and length were pretty important.

I can see with singles and plenums, where you would want to shape things to ease the draw of air into the cylinders. The air is being drawn in by cylinder vacuum, so everything should be shaped accordingly to smooth the air path and allow as much air to be sucked in as possible..

The question is, does(should) this shape change when you convert to boost? The air is now being forced in, so would'nt you now focus on air velocity as opposed to air flow? Or is it the same thing in the end?

Of course if you put a plenum on the air intake side of the ITBs, full of a whole bunch of boost pressure, you could avoid some of the lag time that exists due the plenum and runners of a conventional intake. Instead of boost pressure building in front of the single TB, and then traveling through the plenum and runners to the cylinders, you'd then have boost building right next to the intake valves, just waiting behind each of the ITBs. Hmmm....

Your thoughts?

Re:hw-itb
 

You also have to remember that the biggest mistake people make in an ITB setup (and many of you have in the past, including me) is they use the factory injector bongs on the intake manifold flange, this method is not the best in an ITB setup, since ITB's with proper runners give you a higher velocity of air going in to the engine, the fuel from the injectors off the stock intake manifold does not have alot of time to atomize with the air, therefore a poor mixture that will not burn to its fullest potential, this may be insignificant to you. but if you look at the molecule aspect of it, it makes a huge difference. When the injector is housed in the ITB injector bong, it is about 3 inches from the intake valve when the fuel sprays and mixes with the fast movind air, it has that extra 3 inches of travel through the runner where it atomizes better, which means more power, this brings me to the point where you guys say that runner angle and smoothness is important.
if the transition from the ITB to the intake runner is not smooth, then there will be some turbulance in the air as its hitting the intake valve, turbulance = BAD fuel atomization.

Hope i'm making sence.

Re:hw-itb
 

^^^ in response to that, the best bet you are going to have is using injector bungs in the stock location that they would be in w/ a conventional manifold. the atomization will not change for the worse there, the extra air velocity that you'll find with the ITB setup will only help to atomize that fuel. I'd think by using the injecter bungs on the TB's you'll get an adverse affect regarding fuel atomization because there is more room for the fuel to stick to the walls of the runners. fuel atomization should be happening within the intake ports on the head, not in the runners of the manifold. that is why the good od european CIS system sucked so horribly.

in response to craig, yeah, you would think that say a plenum ontop of the ITB's would be the way to go, because of time spent in vaccuum (especially for those of us with large turbos) however, the lack of an throttle body (in the conventional location, turns your whole charge pipe into one really big plenum. this way, one could use an equal length tubular intake manifold that connects on one side to the charge pipe, and on the other side just uses the TB's as an extension of its runners. that is basically my plan of action with my setup. I think there will be far sufficient plenum volume out of boost, there will not be the vaccuum problems generally associated w/ ITB's and there will be a substantial increase in air velocity by using that type of manifold on a forced induction setup. there are already setups sort of like this being used on E46 m3's and M3 csl's in europe, it is pretty much the only way to boost the stock ITB'ed motor in an M3 (besides the bastardized version of it that evosport is doing here in the states. by no means is this a new Idea, people have been doing this on sunny pulsar GTIR's, R34's, and TT supra's for quite a while. as far as I can tell there is not going to be a better system for iunduction on a car then this setup.

I'll keep you guys posted on my progress, I have an ebay auction ending soon that is going to fund the endeavor. ;D

I'll dyno it too, just to show results (I'm specifically interested in seeing the changes in placement and duration of the powerband)

yee hoo, for a fun, technical post.

Re:hw-itb
 

This is a fun discussion!

So does a large vs. small plenum have an appreciable effect on how quickly the boost builds? Seems like it would take a given turbo at a given RPM, longer to fill up a larger plenum. I wonder how great of a plenum size change it would take, in order to feel a difference in the car? Seems like it would be similar to a large compressed air tank vs a small one....

Of course then it would also be true that air velocity would build more slowy in a large plenum system vs a large one....

???

Re:hw-itb
 

I look at it like this, out of the 3 fastest hondas in the world, only 1 uses ITB's.. Me personally I'd stick to a nice intake plenum..

Carbon Fiber 8)

http://www.advancedinductionresearch...94759_AIR1.jpg

http://www.advancedinductionresearch...500_AIR3-2.jpg

Advanced Induction Research Intake designed by Larry Widmer.

Re:hw-itb
 

yeah, but I like to ---- around with fun stuff, and I don't have money or resources to build the ---- that I would build if I did have the money and resources.

Craig, think about the difference in an a6 manifold and a Y8 manifold, that small of a change in plenum size makes a difference (well, the runner lengths make more of a difference, but it is still noticeable).

Re:hw-itb
 

After you do your own ITB project you will find out for yourself.. ;)

All they do is make noise and your car doesnt go anywhere until about 7-9000rpms. Why dont you try something different like a set of ITB's with a huge box welded around it (like a plenum) and boost it, haha.. It would just be like a Skyline RB26DETT

http://www.teamrice.org/tr4.0/rides/.../brandon18.jpg

http://www.teamrice.org/tr4.0/rides/...n/brandon6.jpg

Corolla w/ ITB's and Turbo.. I should of done that, it would have probably been funnier.

Jeff

Re:hw-itb
 

jeff, those were my plans....but had to sell the ----.

I thought of it like hitting 4 beer bongs at one time, instead of just 1. ;)


i would love to see it done, and it could be done really cheap to. (a few extra hundred dollars)


and about the injectors, I JB welded the holes shut on the ITB's and was gonna use the injector holes on the hacked manifold. -on the B16 one i helped with, we just enlarged the holes on the ITB's to accomidate the stock B16 injectors.

Re:hw-itb
 

read my previous posts ;D I'll have boosted ITB's in the next month.

Re:hw-itb
 

sexy..... ;D