holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Thats right ------- Joey Davis is talking about bulding k series. Mr. ---- a k love a D called me and was asking ---- about K's. Whats next him banging girls who can actually grow hair on there twats?

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

No one cares/this should have been a poll.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

I want to see what JD can doe with a R18 (SOHC w/ Direct fuel injection) might be the next engine in my future.

FAKLAR (maybe) ;D

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

not really an news here.

chris and jd have both posted in the past that eventually they will have to move on to k to keep with the times

the old d's and b's are not getting newer.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Now that would be horrible.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

If they wanted to move up with the times staying with hondas isnt the way to do it. I keep telling JD to tune LS1's as everyone is picking them up because theyre becoming affordable. Domestic V8's are what hondas were 3 years ago in terms of popularity and being fixed up.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

I really want an L33 swap into a Miata. 305 hp with gobs or torque stock in a 2100lb car should be fun.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

they did a show on a v8 into a miata on horsepower tv. that looked like alot of fun. they were comparing it to the old shelby with the power to weight ratio

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

i was just about to say that. really, it was just a big advertisement for monstermiata.com but still bad ass.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

yeah for real. they kept saying the site that they got the parts from, im sure that was it though. the conversion kit was kinda expensive if i remember right. think it was like 4-5k.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

LSx swap is where it's at.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Old Shelby, Jeff? You mean the 427 Cobra that killed so many of it's owners in the first 6 months of production that they stopped making it? :P It won't be that fast to me; I didn't buy speed I earned speed, and I'm used to something that pulls like that and can respect it.

Low mileage L33 are going for $800-900 locally, and are light enough they won't hurt the Miata's handling. Make a wiring harness out of ---- laying around, run another $400 used AEM, while involved it'll be easier than NA to TT wiring on an Mk4 Supra. Fitting the engine doesn't impress me it's just position and measure work, nothing like having to redo suspension or dangle a FWD drivetrain. Dunno what trans I'll run yet, $150+ for the clutch, and $150 to cut the driveshaft. Depending on what I give for the Miata, $2200-3200 out the door.

I kinda feel bad about no turbo involved but one won't be needed. :-\

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

im in for pics

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

yep thats what it was lol. sounds like you got it all figured out for a fraction of the cost. would be a fun car to drive.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

I have mucho k series stuff Im working on. 2 are already drawn up and waiting for my cnc to get some free time. New 80mm k series throttle bodies has well. 2 are on cars right now :y

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

LSx weighs like 150 pounds more than the cast iron block I4 that's in the car. Ditch A/C, P/S, emmisions ----, etc and the weight gain over the front wheels is dismissable. V8 conversions get expensive fast to do them right. Depends what you can do custom, but it's takes a lot to build one right. For example, the rear diff. blows and the cheapest "kit" to change it cost 1k. Unless you fab your own hangers, members, and axles. etc etc. If you're gonna do a swap, do an lsx. No reason not to.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

1.8 rear end will hold 500. The trick is not to run the junk suspension that does nothing to prevent wheelhop.

There's a 175 lb weight range among LSx flavors. Which were you thinking of that's so much heavier than the cast iron Miata mill? You know LS1 weigh 325, and L33 less.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

500 what? 500 cricket-inches? A 1.8 rear will not hold 500. End of story. Countless rears have broken. It's not just wheel hop. If that were true everybody would be adding follower arms and new bushings. These would help wheel hop, but the diff is still weak. So is the factory 5 speed.

I don't the exact weights of all the v8's. I know they add weight, but it's not crazy. Most add 150-250 pounds to the car doing a lsx swap. Depends what you do. Some have done the swap and kept the weight and distribution the same. I know what a L33 is. To me, it's not worth it. If you're gonna do all this, do it right. I'll take 50 pounds for an extra 50 ft*lbs.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

An all iron block, all iron head 5.0 adds 250 lbs. An L33 weighs a lot less, add a plastic intake manifold.

I think it's funny to argue horsepower ratings of drivetrain with you, since nothing in the drivetrain cares about horsepower. I've yet to see more than four IRS imports whose rear ends were correctly damped to prevent hop/chatter under power. The last turbo Miata I tuned did it at 200 whp, I could feel it but the owner couldn't, yes it destroyed the rear end and yes he finished top five out of whole fields of cars at autocross events - how does someone like that not notice? Hrm, it just takes a cage (or hardtop) and arm restraints to take a Miata to the strip, but I've only seem two in a decade. I posit the entirety of online Miata tech knowledge is lacking in fundimental ways because of this lack - like it or not, you want to talk power you talk to a drag racer not a guy who goes in for twisties.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

There's several V8 swap guys that did what you're saying. Braced the differential and built follower arms coming off the hub that went forward to the frame rails. Pretty much killed wheel hop. They still blew the stock diff though. Or a CV joint. The ford 7.5" diff is cheap and much stronger. Plus parts for it are reasonable. ---- for a mazda 7 is crazy high. For the cost of a torsen swap and new R&P you can buy the 7.5" kit.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

I think you are ASSuming JD is actually going to BUY these parts for this car. JD is one of the cheapest fucks I know, trust me, he wont have as much in it as he says he will. He's guessing high.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

id be weary of that statement. Im sure you have done your research, but a friend of mine in Oki tossed a SR20(det) into a miata and the rear end didnt last to long. ill search for the tread, but its a bitch to get onto the forum. I could copy/paste info for you though.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Pat, I think you overestimate the intelligence, experience, and knowledge of a handful of random engine swap guys. You'd have to link me to videos of the cars launching, or "hitting it" from a roll, so I can see how the rear end tracks.

I'll have to pay the prices I mentioned for L33, the engines being somewhat new and me not having any domestic or junkyard hookups.

Frank, a friend of yours in Oki also had a ~450-ish Miata, and that's (Zeroyon) is one of the places I found a theory that goes counter to the popular meme that Miata rearends are junk.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Not sure what you mean, but yes. Maybe its on another forum but...and the thread title is "diff woes"
http://www.zeroyon.com/forums/index....=9671&hl=miata

motorworx/matt/mjr...whatever he goes by now is quite knowledgeable. at lease he seems to be.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

you sure it wasn't GEARZ with Stacey David?

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

We had a guy that was working on a high speed camera setup to watch each wheel during a launch. Might have some video next week. We all know it hops. I know it does. I have cut marks in my tires from them jumping forward and rubbing against the fender. Hop puts huge shock loads on the parts and that's usually what breaks ----. We agree. But saying it's good for 500 hp, no. It's sintered steel ---- mikey-mouse mounted in a aluminum case. The way the carrier is mounted is weak. So is the physical differential itself, be it an open or torsen. The difference in design of the mazda 7 vs. the ford 7.5 is way different. Fords is stout. And also has beefier parts made with better materials. There's one guy I know of who put down 575 hp to the wheels with a stock transmission and diff. He killed a transmission every year till he learned how to baby it. He also killed a diff.

I'm around 270whp now and it's sick. :6 Needs a LSD bad though.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Maybe, maybe not. We put more power to the ground out of stock Honduh econobox transmissions.

Follow my logical order of what the pop culture "knows" about a D-series gearbox: D-series are weak --> D-series differentials are weak --> D-series differentials are strong, but not all of the diff pins holding the spider gears are correctly hardened, so they fail. Refinements such as D-series gears are stronger than B-series due to how compact the gears themselves are eventually filter in. There are a lot more 350+ whp D-series out there than 200 whp Miata so this logical progression in popular knowledge only took 12-14 years to come about.

:/

I don't want to hear "the diff is weak" or "the rods are weak," I want to sift the wreckage with my own two hands and form an intelligent conclusion. For example, fools hammer rod bearing upper halves into the crank journal with detonation until the bearing welds itself to the crank, the unit locks up, and the rod breaks. Fools say the rods are weak and are listened to "because they've done it." I say the rod is possibly quite strong and the fools need to find another hobby - a perfect example of this is reading Honduh forum posts of a decade ago where "6 psi D-series" and "8 psi B-series" is the most you can safely run on a stock Honda engine - barely at or over 200 whp with the turbos and manifolds used at the time.... now the intelligent consensus is that D-series rods will hold 300+ and B-series 400+.

So, after laying this all on you, Pat... what do you think? Did Honda do it right and no other automaker has a clue, or is the popular consensus largely useless? I love me some Hondas... but there's a lot of excellent ---- out there that doesn't have an H or an A badge on it.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Thats almost the exact speech i give to people all the time. As honda people, we really are ahead of the learning curve over alot of the other "groups of car people" out there.

Also a tranny/rear end will hold a v8 with the exact same tq better than a 4cylwith identical tq because because the v8 has smoother force, ie every 90degrees a cylinder fires compared to every 180degrees for a 4 cylinder.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

im not sure, it could have been. it was over a year ago so i dont remember exactly

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

I think we mostly agree. In stock form, without changing the way the car is setup, a hard 3rd gear shift at 250whp will break 3rd gear eventually. A hard second gear shift w/ hop breaks the diff.

Now of course there are people who know what they're doing and fix the weak links and make the setup stronger. But a system is only as strong as its' weakest link. Mazda did not bless us with the strongest parts in the world in all areas.

Tuning is as important to engine longevity at high boost as driving technique is to drivetrain reliability. When my car was N/A, I beat on it. Hard. Now that it's boosted, I find my gear and then apply power. I'm putting less peak loads on the transmission now just from changing my driving habit. Though I haven't touched the transmission in any way, it should fine practicing mechanical empathy.

Funny you mention the connecting rods. I completely agree. I actually started running some stress-strain analysis numbers for a 85mm stroke, 132mm rod length BP 1.8 at 7K @ TDC of the exhaust stroke just to see where it's at and to compare it to the compressive load at various power levels. Need a stock rod to get my cross sectional area to get an exact number. Point is I agree that a lot of "rules" are not really set in stone. Hell, I'm one of the few that's pushing a stock BP this far. Stock was 110whp, I'm around 270, maybe more. I'd like to run more, but I can't use full boost till 3rd as is, so other things need upgrading before I apply more boost.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Other consideration is this is a correct wheel drive vs. fail wheel drive. So when you apply a load, weight transfer puts a higher force on the rear tires. Given two identical 200whp setups, the rear wheel drive vehicle will ultimately see higher loads.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

I think JD was just getting at the point that he cannot trust what you've heard until he's seen it for himself, and that Honda problems were blamed on different things through out the years until someone found the true problem, and now they are capable of more since the true weak links have been found.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

The peak tensile loading on a GSR rod @ stock 8000 rpm redline is equivalent to the peak compressive loading at 400 whp. Not that compressive loading is the same as tensile, but yah it's a ballpark measurement that others have done for other rods in the past.


You can make RWD vs FWD loading comparisons and be partly correct, but Hondas still leave under more power and 60' better than Miatas without failure. It's possible to shear off the ring gear of a Honda trans when launching @ or around 300 whp (230-250 wtq) but it only happens to people who don't know how to preload and launch as I know people who leave on stock trans at 400+ whp (300+ wtq) and never break anything... I also know guys who trash multiple gearboxes from merely burning out incorrectly much less launching, just to remind you (and anyone else reading this) it's a perspective thing not a brand thing.

There are ways to ease the entry to the next gear. The rear end hop when shifting into second... uhm, I doubt any of those guys have had a shock specifically valved for the application, they just buy Brand Name shelf parts and incorrectly ASSume it's doing the job. Also, it is important to yank a lot of timing while shifting, and once in gear add it back in within a number of ms. This can be done one most of the better standalones.

FYI, good luck breaking much past 270 on stock parts without remachining. At some point the piston has to swell under all that thermal load and without enough clearance it's going to bind, or overheat and catch a ringland.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

all this talk and its still gonna be a gay ugly ass miata when its done. its got to be the one of the gayest cars ever.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Nice talking to somebody that has a clue about ----. Yeah, the BP has a compromised coolant routing from the factory in a miata and "rerouting" it to mimic the 323's layout (engine was originally designed for) fixes this. In the stock configuration, the rear most cylinder gets the least amount of coolant. The more heat the engine makes, the more the thermostat opens, the smaller the delta P is across that cylinder. FTL. I will be doing a reroute on my spare engine when I build it this summer. For now, I don't do long boosted pulls as to not overwhelm or overheat that rear cylinder that's always the first to fail. Factory clearances are pretty tight + shitty coolant routing + lots of heat = broken ring landings. Seen it countless times.

MS does flat shift. I don't have it setup now that I'm turbo, but I did when I was N/A. It would cut spark and pull RPM's down to 5K, which is about where I'd land in my next gear. Engine power basically would go off and I could get the clutch engaged in my next gear and then power on when the pedal was out. Made for a surprisingly smooth shift. Need to get this hooked back up. I rewired the car for MS standalone and never hooked it backup.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Agreed, but it's a big step down from the flaming homosexuality that bear the stigmatas known as K-series, or VW. Don't you have a n00b intro thread to make, complete with - and I can not stress this enough - porn that heterosexual men find interesting?


Yeah, not being able to cool the engine is a factor, but only on medium power rides. If you make enough power *in a drag only environment where the engine has time to cool between passes* then the pass is over before there is enough time for heat to build up. Also consider internal cooling, I'm not a big fan of water/alcohol injection for complexity reasons and I normally recommend skipping right to E85.

That can help, but there are also ignition retards that can be set up based on when the gas is depressed, clutch pedal is released, or a gear is changed (identified by ratio between VSS and rpm). That retard decays over 50-500 milliseconds, so it's effect on actual power production and transfer to the ground is negligible, but it does help with jolting the drivetrain. Nice thing about MS is if it doesn't currently have that sort of feature it shouldn't be hard to find a guy who can script it in for you.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

Hmm. I can tell it to look at say, X, RPM, and TPS. That X is configurable. I can do some very simple code to make it say, Clutch switch + coolant>160 for example. Not a problem getting it to see multiple inputs. With flatshift, I was previously retarding to 1 degree total advance at 4500, then hard spark cut at 4800. But it's all adjustable. I can do retard + fuel cut, or retard + spark and fuel cut, etc. It was good enough for being smooth when it worked. I need to hook that ---- back up one day. That and my active knock sensing ----.

I will be putting a nice fail-safe WI setup on here. Another guy on miataturbo.net has a badass fail-safe setup I'm gonna copy. His setup runs on wastegate pressure and a conservative timing map. Then, once he gets into a few PSI, a hobbs swtich closes, turning on the pump and power heads for a chain of safety switches, including a pressure sensor right next to the WI nozzle, water level sensors, etc. Once all the safety stuff clears, a N/O solenoid is energized, shuting the wastegate off from manifold pressure and his EBC comes online, and simultaneously MS table swtiches to his WI timing and fuel map.

WI is not for everyone. But it has its advantages. Just takes a solid install and a bit of maintenance. Nothing extreme.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

How does the KS stuff work on MS? Done "properly" it's DSP-based, but I know the AEM guys just look at it based off the volume of noise coming off of it and claim it works well.

Re: holy shit the sky is falling, Jd wants a K series.
 

ricer.