Aaron Cake

Let's for a minute assume that the stock metering oil system is inadequate for 400HP (it's not).

How is it failure by design if an engine making 200HP from the factory (S5 turbo as an example because 200 x 2 is easy math) is now making twice the HP and requires premix? That's a bit like saying the stock fuel injectors are inadequate when making 400HP, so the car is a failure.

My 400+ HP RX-7 is running the stock metering oil pump, though with more aggressive flow then the stock setup (I made by own actuating lever).

If they are going through an engine a week, they are doing something horribly, fundamentally wrong. Seriously, seriously wrong. I don't know what they were doing but it was clearly bad. Common mistakes are trying to make that power on the stock ECU, trying to tune it like a piston engine, not realizing ignition noise is a VERY BAD THING, etc.

But I don't think you should be using a set of local owner who are going through an engine a week as an example of poor rotary reliability because it is the fault of the owners that their engines were failing.

I can't comment on what it takes to make a 400HP Honda reliable, but I think many of the builds on this forum speak as to what is required to make a turbo Honda reliable. Many of them are examples of failures well below the 400HP mark. There isn't anyone local to me with a 400HP Honda whom I can ask for a mod list but I'm fairly certain that we may be talking about two different things when we say "reliable".

I must point out that I've been driving rotary since I was 19 and have never experienced an engine failure. I likely have 750,000 KM of rotary mileage under my belt. This conversation reminds me of many of the rotary conversations I've had. I'm always hearing about how horrible they are. The same people who say the rotary is unreliable are blowing up their 300HP V8s on the dyno the next week. Or they are being trailered to and from the local 1/4 mile.

That's not stock though. I'm splitting hairs here, but if the block is opened, it invalidates the statement. I'm referring to grabbing a totally stock 13B, then bolting on the appropriate turbo and fuel mods to make a 400HP engine.

The oil has a negligible effect on octane. On the order of fractions of 1%.

Tom-Guy

Fuel injectors do not meter 70 octane oil into the combustion chamber, so that's an apples vs orangutans comparison, sir.




I doubt you have a 400 whp small displacement anything if you've owned one since you were 19 and experienced zero failures. Sorry, internal combustion engines are not simple and there is a learning curve, so in one respect or another you are a liar.

It's a family of ULEV engines that run tight clearances for emissions, not a dog of an engine that's been discontinued several times as it's a problem child. You call it splitting hairs I call it twisting the argument to suit your skewed and incorrect version of reality.


Oh, I can do that with a Honda engine, too, but it starts becoming the sort of "reliable" you were insinuating above.


Only because oil is sluggish and hard to ignite. When it does ignite (due to build up, etc) it has an effect on the order of fractions of 10000000000%.

Tough-guy

Using my KF format. No one else will get this post, maybe not even you...

Aaron Cake

I don't see how the comparison is flawed. Saying that the metering oil system is inadequate for a 400HP engine as a design flaw is like saying that the stock injectors are inadequate for 400HP and it's a design flaw.

The stock clutch won't hold 400HP, but is that a design flaw? The stock filter won't flow to 400HP, but is it a design flaw? No, because these systems were designed for the cars in which they are used and they do their job in an appropriate manner and are reliable in the long term. OEMs rarely design parts that are stronger then they need to be. A few recent examples would be the transmission in the TII RX-7, the block in the Supra and the Ecotec in the Cobalt. For the most part, components need to perform for the long term at their design specs so it is hardly a design flaw if something needs to be replaced when the horsepower is doubled.

And in the case of the metering oil system, it's irreverent anyway because for 400HP street use, the stock system is fine. Track use is another story.

Again there is mention of oil being of low octane, but it's irrelevant. The amount of oil is 250:1 on the stock metering system and thus has almost no effect. Someone on the RX-7 forum ran the calculation a few years ago that it would take mixing oil at a 25:1 ratio with fuel to lower octane one point.

Internal combustion engines are very, very simple machines. Piston engines are complicated in the number of parts they use, but straightforward in the way they work. Rotary engines are complicated in their design, but simple in the way they work. I fully understand engines and while I would never attempt to build a piston engine without some practice, I would have no issues picking it up.

If you find engines complicated, then I can see how a rotary can be very intimidating.

My RX-7 is fully documented on my website. I've owned it since I was 19. It made 146 HP from the factory and with a turbo install when I was 21 I brought it up to about 250-275 (never dyno'ed). For two years I've been running a GT40R at above 400 wheel HP (last dyno was 392 to the wheels, but I've done a bit of tuning since then and it's above 400). I ported my engine and made a few oiling mods to get to this level because I plan to take it higher, but 400HP on a stock block is no problem.

I don't get what is difficult to understand...I've had my '86 RX-7 since I was 19 and it was my primary driver until I bought my Insight in 2003. I had a '78 RX-7 as a winter beater before the Insight as well. What is hard to believe? I've never experienced a rotary engine failure. I also own a '84 RX-7 that is a parts car but runs fine. Additionally I have a '76 Mazda Cosmo (13B) that starts right up.

Mazda has never discontinued the rotary. Mazda has been making rotary engines in production since 1965 on a continuous basis. As with all manufacturers, certain cars are only available in certain areas. The FD as a great example, was discontinued in North America in '95 but continued to be produced in Japan until 2004. At that point, the RX-8 was available. The FD, of course, was a disaster of a car...

My definition of reliable includes the following points:

-car starts up when you turn the key
-the car can be driven daily, used the way any other car is used. It can be used to make service calls, haul product, etc.
-long trips are not second guessed. You can get in the car and drive it 500 miles without concern
-on the weekends, the car can be driven to the track and beat on mercilessly without worry of failure. At the end of the weekend, it is driven, and not trailered, home.

I'm not saying that piston engines can't do this. What I am saying is that it is far easier to get the kind of power increase in a rotary and remain reliable without having to replace the internals. You have just said that bolting a turbo to a Honda engine and making 400HHP makes it unreliable. With a 13B, this is not true. Stock for stock, of course.

I can't make any sense of this statement. Oil does not "build up" in a rotary engine because it is burned in the combustion process. The amount of oil injected is so small that it has no effect. It cannot build up. The only build up you will see in a rotary is carbon, just like a piston engine. Rotary engines tend to build up carbon more easily due to the combustion chamber shape and it can indeed lead to a failure.

2GeclipseRST

That video was funny as hell.


Aaroncake will shut ANYONE down who talks ---- about the rotary. Most of which have never owned one nor do they know what the ---- they are talking about.

If kain still posted, he'd be all over this.

Bl00dlust, where the hell are you? Defend.

I'm standing behind aaron on this one.

Aaron has DYNO SHEETS and VIDEOS to prove he's got what he's talking about and built it HIMSELF.

All you need do is google search the following:

Aaroncake
Project tina
Six port 13b turbo

Personally, he doesn't have to defend himself. His car speaks for itself.

PR has some of the fastest rotaries in the world, some running 6 and 7 second passes on the same engine all season long. Yes, rotary.

That's ok. I point everyone on here that gets a rotary and pm's me in the right direction. That way they dont have to listen to this ignorant bullshit debate about how "crap" a rotary is. Aside from the fuel economy, i love mine. It has it's quirks but nothing i can't handle and because there are alot of people with the notion that rotaries are "crap" they are easier to scoop up in good condition for less than an eg6 with 300k on the stock d16.

Again, you dont ---- with aaroncake when it comes to rotaries. He'll shut a ***** down.


Edit: I should have read the whole thread.

Everything was already covered.

*facepalm*

I just saw "Aaroncake" as the last poster in a thread with the word "rotard" in it and knew exactly what was going to happen. I was right.