Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

I've been reading up on ethanol and direct gasoline injection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_Direct_Injection for a little while and want to what you guys think will be the future of ethanol in these vehicles. Every year there are more and more vechiles coming out with a GDI engine available or standard.

Audi a4 and vW 2.0t, Volvo 2.0t, Mitsu 1.8, Isuzu 3.5 etc.

they all run higher than normal CR and boast better fuel economy and more power than their port injected counterparts

I read the MIT paper http://lfee.mit.edu/public/LFEE_2005-001_RP.pdf on ethanol supplemented through GDI to aid a gasoline vehicle but does anybody have any links to a straight e85 Direct Injected vehicle running ethanol.

I would think this would be a great future engine. what do you guys think

I know theres a few people that are going to flame for asking but im just curious what the OG's think about this. E85 has proven itself as a great alternative to race gas over here in Colorado and i just want to discuss what the great minds of HMT think would be the outcome of converting one of these direct injected vehicles to run e85

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

i have no idea but your avatar is mesmerizing. Where is JD when you need him?

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Direct injection is the hotness because it eliminates the need for the air in the intake runners to swirl and mix properly with the fuel being injected in the runners before passing through the intake valve and into the cylinder. This allows for the best atomization and much less chance of the fuel pre-igniting or detonation as it enters the cylinder before the actual cylinder combustion event should take place.

I think some of the S-series Audi's are running 13:1 compression using High Test and direct injection. Couple that with the octane rating of E85 and you could see some seriously high compression motors with zero chance of knock, even with boost :)

I think a lot of these Audi's arent using any Throttle Bodies either...figure that one out ;)

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

please help me figure that out, i'm obviously missing something

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

direct injection is the way things are going but running on ethonol alone wont happen, ethenol has less emmisions but also reduces your fuel economy

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Not if used properly. Plenty of people say there is a 1-2% fuel economy penalty blah blah blah but if the fuel system is done right along with proper tuning, you can make more torque, produce less emissions, and have better fuel economy with E85.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

I think that statement was made durring the paxonboost bashing....

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Addition of alcohol reduces the heat content of the resulting fuel mixture(alcohol has about 1/2 of the energy content of gasoline. ther fore you need to use a lot more to go the same distance.

aswell alcohol is very volitile and can cause drivability issues, there fore it will not happen

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

to make the same power on e85 as gasoline youll need nearly twice the fuel, there is alot less energy released when you burn the alcohol

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Actually it's only about 40% more fuel needed

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Textbook says about half

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

its somewhere in there guys. You can run crazy boost and crazy compression ratios with E85 though, less heat is produced and detonation is quenched pretty good

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

great fuel but just no reasonable for daily driving, emagin putting in 80 L to fill your civic? what would that weigh

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

it really is better than running race gas on a daily basis though. The fuel mileage wont be great but the cost of the fuel is alot cheaper than race fuel, but less power too. Its not a bad daily driving thing if you can get it. My big gripe with E85 is that it is corrosive like nobodys business, so itll eat up a stock fuel system/pump and lines badly, o rings and hoses etc etc

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Pretty much every VW is now an FSI engine. It allows a lean burn by keeping all the fuel rich charge near the spark plug and injecting it just moments before ignition. Only problem i can forsee is fitting a spark plug, injector, at least 4 decent sized valves into a combustion chamber. Its going to pose a limit on valve area hurting the max cfms the head can flow.

The next big step is solenoid actuated valves, giving you infinitely variable cam timing. A more primitive system is used by Audi and BMW (valvetronic) to replace the throttle body.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Yeah, I think automotive technology is going to advance like crazy in the next 5-10years.. Since gas prices are projected to rise slowly but surely in this time period every manufacturer is going to have some means of getting better millage while sill appealing to the performance enthusiast.

check this out this is BMW's next standard engine 306 hp and 400 Nm of torque on a biturbo inine 6 that gets the same millage as the current inline 6

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...veils_new.html

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Valve opening is controlled by the ECU, eliminating the need for a TB... Dr Suess put it more eloquently than I.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

that would be nice to just throw some trumpets on the head, then tune. no more need to buy cams, tb or anything

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

FWIW we´ve had E85 as an "emission friendly" fuel at the pumps since a number of yrs back over here.
Us boosted boys indeed turn to it.
An NA engine tho..fugedaboutit.

True..methanol has approx half the energy content of gas measured in BTU(british thermal units)
However,ethanol burns with different properties than methanol and hence..the not so vastly increased fuel consumption.
However.
This to a great extent relies on that cars in general have engines that are really overpower to propel them for a given speed= we waste fuel doing so.

Nah..i seriously doubt that E85 will knock out gasoline any time soon.
Reasons are plentyfold.
For instance..might be somewhat more enviroment friendly as a BURNT fuel,but it SURE as hell is a VASTLY bigger hazard in liquid form.
Anyone ever burnt E85 out in the open?
If not..please do.
One of the reasons for it being "85%" is that it need to have a visable flame if things go to hell in a handbasket,and now the idiots around here wanna start putting E100 at the pumps as well.

If you wanna look into a highly efficient boosted car that runs E85 all the time check;
www.limmet.se
Guy is Swedish,but..my bet is that he´ll answer any questions you might have in english just as well.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

They do have a throttle boddy (except for those who use the intake valve instead, valvetronic), but when the engine is in lean burn mode the throttle is wide open, and the output power of the engine is limited by the amount of fuel that is injected, just like on a diesel engine. The air/fuel mix is stoich right in front of the spark plug, but the total lamba in the combution chamber is like 2,5:1 (Honda has an engine the can go to AFR's of 64:1). Open throttle means no energy is lost in the "pumpe losses" (the gasoline engine normaly has "breathing troubble" since the throttle is almost closed nearly all the time). But the engine only is in lean burn mode as small part of is "life", low rpm, and like 20% throttle opening (city crusing).

The reason engine manufactures want high CR is not for more power, it's for better MPG. This is one of the biggest advantages of the Diesel engine. Higher CR meens better fuel efficensy.

The biggest reason why E85 ain't the future is that it is not possible to make enough ethanol for the entire world. The only reson "the world" wants to use E85 is the emmissions (lover CO2). If you put 5% ethanol in ALL of the gasoline that is sold, the enviremental gain would be bigger than if a few people run on E85. E5 is comming more and more.

I think many of the "future" cars will be Diesel-electro Hybrids.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

diesel engines run high compression, because they pump air, that's not why they produce higher fuel mileage, diesel has a higer btu rating than gasoline, also because of that diesel engines have a lower BSFC than gasoline engines, that translates to better fuel mileage. It's only a matter of time before gasoline engines start to change dramatically, I mean ----, we've been using the same principles for decades, something has to change, because the car makers aren't doing ---- to help us out, I still see new cars on lots with posted city mileage of less than 35, that's gross as ----, gasoline prices here in canada are ridiculous these days, today's price being 105.9 a litre, which is what 4 bucks a gallon? who the ---- can afford to fuel up a car, pay for insurance, and afford to pay for a NEW car, like come on here, give me a break, the car makers are always trying to promote this and that about fuel mileage and how ---- has changed, sure it's changed a bit, but cars from the Big 3 still guzzle gas, that's nothing new, ---- I had to go and pick up my mom this weekend at the airport in her 2003 Grand AM, comes witht he 2.2L Ecotec 4 banger, that slut maybe gets 35 on the highway, maybe 30 in town? good lord.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Jeez sounds like alot of apposing ideas and statements in here.
(awaits JD's response to this thread..................)

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

still less than my focus. :P

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

E85 = 83,263 btu/gal
Reg. Unleaded = 114,132 btu/gal

Stoich E85 = 9.7:1
Stoich Reg. Unleaded = 14.7:1

I've run E85 through several small engines w/o a hitch, even a picky hi-po Goped motor. I actually wrote a paper quite similar to that MIT one, but focusing on my observations of E85 runtime vs. that of gasoline and got a superior rating at the state science fair...whoop dee doo.

The motor of the future is definately a direct injected, high c/r, lean idle, turbocharged, E85-powered unit. At least here in the midwest where even small towns have E85 pumps and in places where they're ethanol crazy, like Sweeden (Saab Biopower concepts, anyone?) and Brazil.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

seymore butts "Squirters 2", I'm pretty sure :6

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

I was actually going to suggest they ask you to comment on direct injection, since you love it so ------- much and can't shut up about it. :)

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Becouse they pump air? what do you mean by that? Does not all engines pump air?

Diesel engines have high C/R becouse if they did not they would not work. You would not get high enough temprature for the diesel to vapor, or to ignite if it was not for the high CR, or high boost pressure.

The formula for the efficency of an engine during a ideal burning prosses (adiabatic) is E = 1(-1/CR^(kappa - 1)).
E=epsylon=efficency
Kappa in a adiabatic burning prosses is 1,4, in reality it fluctuates (polytrop), if we took that in to the summary it would also be in the diesel engines favour.

So: 1(-1/22^0,4) = 0,71 for a diesel engine with 22:1 C/R
1(-1/10^0,4) = 0,6 for a gasoline engine with 10:1 C/R

High CR gives less heat losses and a better type of energy (energy is not always just energy).

The only advantage with gasoline is that it burns faster, wich is a problem for diesel, that is why they only manage about 5000rpm. This is for the same reson as above, only in the other engines favor. Slow burning rate means more warm energy is lost out in the exhaust.

Another loss of having a throttle valve is that we have underpressure (vacum) in the intake, and when the inntake and exhaust valves overlapp, some exhaust gasses are pulled back in to the combution chamber. This gives lower combution temrature, and that gives lower efficency, and also lower NOX gasses (this is what the EGR system does normally, so offcorse in one way it is a bit positive).

But the biggest addvatage for the diesel is that when you don't need much engine power the lambda is really high, it can run up to lambda = 5 (city crusing), and the gassoline engine has to run labda = 1 all the time (can be up to 2,5 on FSI engines). So a 1,6 diesel engines uses a lott less fuel on crusing than a 1,6 gasoline engine.

I agree that E85 engines have a lot of potensial, but i still don't think a Otto engine will ever have better fuel efficency than a diesel engine. But i will continue to buy Gasoline engines, just couse they are so much more fun to drive, and if the maufacturers continue to develop the E85 engines, i really look forward to driving them, couse they have potensial of good MPG, and HIGH hp ratings. The VW 1,4 turbo and compressor engine have allready won lots of awards, but with higher CR and a bigger turbo it would be an awsome engine with really high HP and good MGP.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Huh? Wouldn't any poppet valve engine have that problem as the action of the piston going downward in the cylinder is what's causing that vacuum in the first place? There's always going to be a pressure difference when the piston is moving downward in the cylinder it's self, regardless if there's a throttle body or not. Nothing really 'cools' combustion, to cool you have to displace energy, all I think exhaust gas would be doing is limiting the combustion of the fuel. Especially since it's going to be fairly close to the temperature of the combustion occurring within the cylinder, a lot closer than the ambient air coming in when it's that close to the head.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

The overlap is a few degrees BTDC until a few degrees ATDC. So the piston is not moving much, down or up. But the second both valves are open (piston on its way up!) the huge vacum in the intake manifold on a Otto engine is making exhaust gas go back in to the combustion chamber. On a diesel engine you never have any vacum that is worth talking of.

The exhaust gasses take the place of air, so you don't get as much air in to the cylinder as normaly. The exhaust gasses does not burn, so you get a weaker combustion since there is less air. That means you don't get as high pressure, and that means you don't get as high temprature. Lower combustion temprature means lower NOX. This is excatly what is done with an EGR system, only you manualy put exhaust in to the inntake.

And btw, to temprature in the sylinder when the exhaust stroke is close to done, is like 5 times cooler then the temprature during the combustion.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Lol direct injection pwns you. But the aftermarket is many years away from actually using it effectively for performance purposes. Ive messed around with it abit in the 08' cayenne turbo's, but from what ive seen the issue is going to be flow and tuning, as porsche uses multiple injections per cycle, to heat the cat mainly.

Actually I was talking about the e85 issue, since propane is my alternative fuel of choice.....I know nothing of the subject.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

eDm-cRxXx? Shut the ---- up. Gasoline engines are Harris cycle.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

I recall renault experimenting with electronic valves about 10 years ago. It was a direct inject I5 engine with no cams.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

So basically, exactly what I said. adding exhaust gas doesn't cool the combustion, but limits the combustion-reaction due to the lack of oxygen. Causing the combustion to not have the possibility of releasing as much energy. It's not cooling, it's preventing energy from being released. Also, I'm fully aware of how emissions equipment works.
Also about the valves, when the piston is going up it's still working as an air pump which should keep the exhaust gas from flowing back into the cylinder. ATDC it's going to have a possibility, and may, but i doubt the intake is that substantial. You're never going to get complete combustion anyway, air being 78%~ nitrogen is going to put a damper on that before you even start throwing exhaust gas back into the combustion chamber.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

well, in that case i just missunderstud you. Sorry about that. And i think you may be right that it can't happen BTDC, but it is still a problem, and it is one of the advatages of the Diesel and FSi engine. But it is a smal problem, i will agree on that.

Yes, the air is containing about 78% nitrogen, but you can't do anything with that. So we will have to consentrate on alle the small things we can do something about.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Ethanol defiantly has some pros and cons. I was talking at length today with an engineer from Federal Mogul about some parts for a new engine that is in development and the conversation went towards the topic of ethanol.

The biggest pro is pure performance. There is no doubt that E85 is a very good choice for someone who is planning to make big numbers with high boost or compression.

There are many cons with different levels of complexity. For one, ethanol clogs injectors like a ----------er. It helps if you run like 5 tanks of E85 and then 1 tank of regular gasoline to help clean the fuel system. Another big problem is corrosion and induced wear. In some instances the corrosion of the valve seats will be so severe that the valve will not seal properly and during combustion the valve/seat interface will get toasted leading to failure. Lets say a standard valvetrain is designed to loose .5mm of lash through out its life (150,000 miles or 600-1000 hours of dyno testing.) Running on E85 it will loose approx 2mm of lash in its life. There are seats on the market today that are a better match with E85 such as copper infiltrated sintered powder metal (3010) but corrosion is still a problem. The copper infiltration helps with the general porosity of powder metal as well as heat dissipation but it doesn't completely eliminate the problem. E85 is much more harsh on the intake valves than the exhaust valves which would be a benefit for direct injection. E85 is also very corrosive to the cylinder walls and piston rings. Things get even more complicated in high boost applications where fuel dilution can cause other problems although fortunately most seals today are ethanol compliant. Then with emissions. There is more fuel being burned and although emissions are reduced in some categories they are increased in others.

Then on the discussion of just making ethanol in general gets heated pretty quickly. There is the debate about the amount of energy needed to produce ethanol vs. the amount you get out, the amount of nutrients that it takes out of the soil, and greenhouse gas emissions. Then people are forecasting that with the current level of the governments financial assistance many farmers will switch to ethanol production. This could lead to food shortages and soon we will be importing not only gasoline but also food from other countries. Ethanol production via corn is not high yield in comparison to some of the other possible ethanol sources.

I recently observed a teardown of the Audi 2.0L TFSI engine which was direct injected. The system as a whole is very complicated. The injection system itself is very advanced and expensive but there were also these sliding plates in the intake ports which helped induce tumble into the cylinder. My boss was previously a Sr. Designer at Porsche and had a lot of experience with the development of these systems. I was amazed to learn of the complexity of the engine. It is an amazing engine, although the cost is high.

Cliffnotes:

Better Performance
Worse fuel economy
Shorter Engine Life
Equal emissions
Complex issues surrounding its production.

I could go on and on about the topic but those of you who care probably already know and those that don't know probably dont care. I am by no means an expert on the topic but i have been learning quickly and been thrown into it with my current job. I have been trying to learn as much as i can from the people around me which is where most of this info comes. Dont be surprised if i have a fact or two wrong. :1

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Thats a good and interesting post, thanks for the info.


It's gonna be interessting to si how well the bio fuel engines (saab, among others) will last.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

not all high speed diesel engines have run the high compression ratios that they are today, not all diesel engines are the same. There have been quite a few diesel engine combustion chamber designs over the years as well as injection pumps and systems, lots of the diesel engines from the past would not run in the cold, and most would smoke a storm even on a hot day, your also forgetting that not all fuels have the same lambda values for a given load and power rating, so comparing lambda for diesel to gasoline is apples to oranges, diesel engines have a lower BSFC as i said before because due to the fuel burning as slow as it does, the power stroke lasts longer, it's not like the hammer hit combustion event of a gasoline engine, especially in today's diesel engines with pilot injection and even pre pilot injection events. As far as your theory that diesel engines can't rev past 5k rpm? most heavy duty high speed diesel engines do not rev past 5k rpm due to the fact that the reciprocating assembly weighs WAY too much for those rpm's as well as piston speeds approching the ridiculous even at 3k rpm, that's with a 14 liter high way tractor engine, christ the new ford and chevy diesel engines rev over 4k rpm, ---- an old 6.5 turbo diesel from a chevy 1 ton dually revs to 4k, ---- i woudln't rev that slut past 3k, even on gas, junk. Typical GM design, take the spark plugs out and install injectors, turn key and drive....

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Most of the diesel engines that don't have high compression have high boost pressure to compensate. And you say, as high as today? 15 years ago the CR on VW diesels was like 25:1, now it's like 19:1. But they have high boost pressure to compensate for it.

But of course no all are the same, but i general diesels have way higher CR than gasoline engines.

If a gasoline engine need 14.7 kilo air to burn 1 kilo gas, and a diesel needs 60 kilo air to burn 1 kilo diesel, of course i matters. I'm not saying a Diesel has three times better efficency, but it is a bit better, that's a fact.

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

Here's a link for you it cover both Fuel Injection and Carburertor as well.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...earth/me2.html

Re: Ethanols future with Direct Inction, please dont hate
 

---- it's been a year since I started this post and the world has changed. Gas is $3+/dollar and i have 2 e85 stations within 10 mins from my house, any more thoughts about ethanol?