Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

NA cars like stupid large TBs to smooth the transition across the throttle blade.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

:-\

I guess I am retarded then. It doesn't really make sense to me.

:1

I guess it is worth a shot for the 135 that Professional Products sells their TBs for.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Thats for the ugly satin style and doesnt include shipping. Mine are 140 shipped and polished.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Ugly satin > polished.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

I like the polished ones but thats my style.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

ya but wouldnt that (huge TB) hurt your flow velocity in midrange and bottom end power. for most mildly built cars running under 8k rpm wouldnt a huge TB be counterproductive unless its going to have the supporting compression and head package to rev to the effinency (NA of course).

to the original poster you shouldnt buy the "best" manifold but the one that best suits your powerband and flow needs i believe depending on your app.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

when does a b series all motor/turbo build not get reved to 9k+. Simple they all do. B16a's bottom ends stock handle 10k its nothing new or omg crazy info. The bore/stroke flow of the motor is a result of the powerband of the b16a. Anything to improve this powerband anything in vtec past 5200 is the goal



Did you just not see 190 whp and over 115 lb torque with stock bottom end b16a,junk header,generic ecu program tuning with a fpr and a 70mm throttle body achieved back in 2001.


Now are you claiming that a smaller throttle body would net more power classic. Volume in high rpm applications is your goal


small stock bore 58mm throttle bodies dont do a damn thing but hinder high rpm hp. Welcome to reality.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

WTF is the point when you stop building power at 7500-8000?

Was this achieved with stock cams because I seriously doubt it.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

omg ctr cams and a gsr intake manifold ported. Car ran high 12's

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Very impressive. I suck at life then.

/life.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

12s ftw? I've never gotten a look inside of a Honda intake mani, but do the runners protrude into the plenum? Kind of have a design idea...

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

what dohc vtec car have you been in that dies at 7500 none. Stock b16a's Im sorry like 8500 and with some basic port work/larger tb and tuning will like 9k all day long on stock cams.


I spent years under the guy who was on of the OG builders so I have seen it all. Volume owns

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

stock bottom end 1595 15 year old bottom end all motor I think 12's are pretty impressive

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Wasn't saying they weren't. High 12s for an N/A 4 cylinder with essentially bolt ons is movin

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9800/mylastdynowo6.jpg

Hmmm. Well my personal failure stops making power past 7500, so I guess it is the only one.

I have seen similar dyno graphs with the same results on unported PR3 heads.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

i didnt say a stock bore TB i was getting at actually matching the TB to achieve a broder powerband than one that makes 190 for 500rpm are you arguing that peak numbers win races? im really not trying to be a dick or argue with you since i would have no clout on here anyways. i guess stock pistons and head should be reved to 10k all day long and make reliable power since everyones doing it.and getting a IM with the biggest plenum shortest runners and a huge TB is where its at on most street cars where the redline is set to around 8k.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Typically, peak numbers win drag races.... How many times do you see a drag car fall more then 3 or 4k below its "peak" and then its right back up there...

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

cars just dont spike peak #'s especially with all motor cars. Honda was smart hence why b16a got itr gearing back in 1989. Fixes the torqueless wonder. Im done I lived it saw that it worked. Make a living at it if thats not enough then your right.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Question on intake manifold design, might be retard, but...

Since the air goes into the plenum and hits what I assume are the 1,2,3,4 runners in the order, with 4 being at the back of the plenum, in order to help equalize air distribution, would it be beneficial to run a pipe with a bend within the plenum to feed air into the rear(?) runners? Just random thinking..

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

I don't know who this comment was aimed at, but I not really doubting you. I just think it is silly to make sweeping generalizations.

I am just trying to figure out what we are doing wrong. It is just really hard for me to believe that making 190 WHP on a NA B16 is that easy.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Let's tie this thread up in a neat little bundle of string:


So the quality of those two grounds skew what the sensor reads, while the load of the wideband competes with the ECU across a compromised ground. Not ideal.

The engine IS ground. The negative terminal of the battery is not, the ECU harness is not, the ground wire bolted between your taillights is not. Run all your tuning gear to ground, and if the car acts ------- wierd and you don't get intelligent results when you try to tune than you have to fix the ECU/system grounds so that you can tune it. It sucks for most mechanical minded people (insert 99.7% of car enthusiasts here) as electricity doesn't make sense unless you've gone ninja on the subject and you visually can't see/picture what is going on.


I really don't think we need to use an untunable car as a poster child for whether or not AEBS manis work well.

Blundar turned me onto them, holy ---- he was right (as usual), then next thing I know they are apparently made by Pro Products, holy ---- their stuff doesn't suck, and then chris walks in and asserts they are good. /thread, because that is a three way gangbang of correctness.

No, because the plenum is larger in diameter than any throttle body. Which doesn't matter because plenum size is more of a dynamic factor, although it does have an effect. Look at the IM entry to the port, the length and shape of the port itself, bowl, shape of the backside of the valve, and the radius on the valveseat. Confused? Now you know why good head porters are generally bright guys.

It's real easy to tell when you have a restriction in your TB sizing, guys; the engine draws a small vacuum at WOT, in the upper rpms. If you get any vacuum then the TB is too small. A few hp of throttling (heh) can't always be detected by a service grade vacuum/boost gauge, but datalogs tell all down to a few mBar.

Ah, that explains it. You Cali boys shipped all your auto B16's with their worthless cams to the East coast. :3

The problem isn't unported PR3 castings as PR3 ports are too large and hogged out and kill off low and midrange power... I've got $5 that says it's auto B16 cams.


Well, retard, since you set yourself up for it... :P

The air goes into the plenum and hits what are the 4, 3, 2, 1 runners in order. There are a lot of factors that go into how much air goes into each runner, I'll list them off and let you visualise each in turn. I deal with this ---- EVERY time I tune a car and check plugs to set individual cylinder fuel and ignition trims... btw, stock B16 IM sucks worse than anything I've ever seen except maybe a D15 IM. Anyway:

- How big the plenum is dictates if there is available air to evenly distribute to each runner. Too-small plenums can starve the last (#1) runner.
- How big the TB/how big the airmass going through the TB dicates the velocity the air enters the plenum, which in extreme (yet common) situations can carry it past the first (#4) runner and shoot it toward the last (#1) runner.
- How healthy each cylinder is dictates how much it sucks air into each runner
- Bunch of other stuff. Fist your mother, I'm getting sick of typing.

There have been a bunch of tricks over the years to balance flow:

- Angling TB entry into the plenum to shoot air across the back of a stock/small plenum so it reaches the last (#1) runner... I've also seen this done poorly, or on a big plenum aftermarket unit, and it results in overfeeding #1 as boost goes up - the engine in question had three good pistons and one that had rings and ring lands shattered in a manner I've not seen since. 450 whp setup and it had broken the rings themselves into 1/8" to 1/4" bits, some of which had tuned vertically in the mashed together twisted ruin of what used to be ringlands. Crazy ---- to look at.

- Flowbenching the IM and then porting each runner and runner entry to balance things out. The guy who did this also flowed his injectors and matched them to which runner they fed fuel to. Mike Sitar = the man, he's built reliable driven-to-the-track-for-multiple-season 9 second cars for $3000 total. :6

- Let's not even touch on trying to shape plenum and target plenum size for the desired power level correctly the first time around.

Blah. I can't state enough times how vital it is that you fist your mother, QikFag.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Okay so I had the runner order reverse :1

How's the Miata project looking, Josephina...
Individual porting work on each runner sounds like an easier job than cutting an intake manifold and putting my retard tube to help the rear cylinders. So I assume cylinders 1 and 2 are typically the most prone to running lean? I'm trying to learn ---- nignog

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Lol, I see your point JD. I am just going by my personal observations. Hell, I might try the AEBS on my car just to see what it will do.

Just a question about the LC-1.

How will the ground issue skew the digital data?

Meh, I guess I need to refresh my understanding of how the O2 circuit actually function electrically.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Qik, it really depends on the setup, and it varies a LOT. If I tried to sum up what I think is a normal - good luck finding many of them - setup: #4 runs barely cooler than all the others, #3 looks like it's running hotter as boost goes up, so I add in more fuel and yank timing there. Keep in mind that I evaluate this based on reading plugs, so consider that #2 and #3 are thermally landlocked and #3 tends to run noticeably hotter than any of the other cyls when I make these statements. Any extra fuel I throw at a particular cyl is there to cool it; not always due to flow, but when flow imbalance rears it's head it's pretty obvious.

When it can't correctly control the ion pump in the sensor because the blue ground wire's current has a shitty ground connection that has to fight the ECU's current for the same shitty ground path. Fun fun. Klaus, who made your wideband, has a number of interesting tech blurbs available for download on his site about grounds and their importance. He's a bright guy, you should pay attention to what he has to say. I'm not trying to be a smartass when i say that as there is, admittedly, a LOT of ---- on their site if you dig at it.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Makes sense, and...

Yeah, I just re-read the write up on their site. :P

I know very well that Klaus knows his ----. That is a big part of the reason that I choose to use Innovate's products.

:y

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

The fact he warranties every LC-1 past it's first owner, while working out it's quirks, says a lot, too.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

JD-izms impress me.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Jd when I was just at my shop I was thinking about the dyno posted and I started really thinking when I have seen a b16a fall face first at mid 7k oh ya the stepchild auto b16a motor. Those cams are total trash and should be swapped out for sir2 or any b16a3/2 5 spd cams before installing the motor.



Yes making 190 whp on an all motor b16a stock bottom end is that easy. If i was to redo that set up done in 2001 Im confident I could achieve close to 210 with a typhoon manifold and all the other nice goodies out in the world. The tuning on that motor was a mugen generic chip it was 2001 and a adjustable fpr and stock 240 injectors. Who knows where the timing was most likely with most of those programs around 30 which I have found to be the polar opposite of what works.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Hey Chris, The dyno I posted, if that is the one you are referring to, is of my current setup. The cams are not the B16 Auto cams, that is unless the B16 auto cams have the same markings as the earlier ITR cams.

I'd ask what timing you have found to work well, but I know most guys don't like to divulge that info.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

You have itr cams and your peaking at 7500? There is something really wrong there. My brothers si with ctr cams and bolt ons was peaking at 8400 and was carrying to 9k I set the rev at 9400. On the manifold side I was running a stock b16a si usdm manifold I cleaned up with 62mm itr throttle body.



a bone stock b16a should peak at 8k from the factory and carry to 8500.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

Exactly why I am confused.

Nothing I have tried made the power carry like it typically does on a B series VTEC engine.

Both of our B17s exhibit he same puke and die torque up top.

I might actually try a bigger TB, but I still think that a lack of static compression is really hurting these engines.

Here's my setup:

B17A1 125.000 miles or so.
'97 spec ITR cams
Edelbrock 4-2-1 Pro-Flo header. The 2 piece one that they stopped producing
Greddy SP2 exhaust
Tuned on Crome free by me.
Cheap Egay CAI. It was free.
Everything else is literally bone stock.

The 17 has a factory static compression ratio of 9.7:1 I know that .3 CR really shouldn't make a difference, but...

The one thing that kind of concerns me is that the last compression check had cranking pressures around the 165 mark. The nominal cranking pressure brand new is supposed to be 184.
It kind of makes sense that the slightly larger cams will reduce the cranking pressure, even though this is on the primary and secondary lobes, but it still seems low when many people are talking about having cranking pressure in the 200-225 range.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

The other car/b17 in discussion is mine. I acutally looked at all the previous charts and they mimick the one nick posted earlier. even the ctr i have won't carry power out past 7500rpms. then again the car has been acting screwy with all kinds of tuning changes. however, the AEBS was removed and the P30 was installed and dynoed within about 1 week. The drivability and the torque increase was really amazing. We've been talking about larger TBs for a couple of weeks now, I seriously think we'll try it.

Also might not be a bad idea to throw the AEBS on your car nick and see how it reacts.

Current Setup
B17a1 - 60k
JDM ITR Header
2.5" exhaust - vibrant resonator, comptech muffler, high flow cat
P30 Intake Manifold
Short Ram Intake w/AEM Dry Flow Filter
Homemade Ground Kit - and btw i cleaned all the grounds within the last 8-9 months, and the only questionable wire in that bay is the negative battery terminal, which will be changed here really soon.
CTR Intake Cam
Tuned on Crome
AEM 5bolt Cam Gears currently set to +2\-1 if i remember right


It is probably due for a new set of spark plugs but we'll see how they look tonite.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

I have yet to see a car that didn't have more wiring quality issues than the owner thought there were.

Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
 

What about the opposite?

:P