wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I have just finished the install (minus the intercooler) on my 2.5L wrangler.

Turbo is a Garrett T3 .48 exhaust with a junky .50 compressor side that I swapped on. Turbo was originally a .48 .42. Compressor side was just waaaaay small, so I figured I would try the .50. Looks like the turbo is off of a VW from the garrett tag on it.

Now here is my question. I figured that with this small of a turbine that the boost would come on almost instantaneously. Boost doesnt even start until almost 3K. On a motor that redlines at 4500 this just doesnt cut it. Is there anything that would make it spool a little faster? I dont mind having the boost at 3k but I wish it came on about 1800 to 2000 rpms. Would a restrictive exhaust (cat back) make it spool slower than it should?

Also the turbo is internally wastegated at 7psi. The wastegate is a dual port and does not have an arm connecting to a flapper, instead the diaphragm portion in mounted directly on the turbine housing with no visible parts. Question here is...anyway to bump that 7psi down to 5psi on this type of wastegate?

Here is a pic of the setup before I put the garrett on and a pic of the rig. Dont mind the mess under the hood, still trying to figure out the best place for the intercooler.

Attachment 20378

Attachment 20379

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Setup looks sweet. Take some more pics!

Did you hook the turbo up to the stock exhaust with the cat? If so that's a problem right there.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Not the stock exhaust, but by no means is it free flowing. I hooked it up as a temp. fix until the rest of my bends come in.

thanks for the reply. I will try to get some pics tonight.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Stupid question but I have to ask, did you replace both the housing and the compressor wheel?

Nice lookin setup man

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

The larger and the shorter the exhaust the better.

Also did you take that small pipe and filter off the turbo compressor yet ?
If you restrict the air coming in it will also effect your spool.


Thing looks sweet. Get more pics of everything.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

thats what i was going to ask as well

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Yes I did. And thank you.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

My vote is for restrictive exhaust.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I have not run it yet without the filter because in the dusty environment that this gets run, it needs to have a filter.

The setup looks a little different now with the smaller turbine housing and a new filter. I will get more pics but I need to wait until the camera battery charges.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

This seems to be the collective idea, so I think tomorrow I will pull from the cat back and see if I cant get it to spool a little faster.


One more question.....Would there be any issues with removing the pcv's and just running small filters on top of the valve cover? Or do I absolutely need a catch can setup? Seems this is one step that I had overlooked.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

No you don't absolutely need a catch can setup, it's just a bit cleaner. Personally I run a breather filter and then a hose to the ground from the breather box on the back of my block.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Put something in front of the turbo because turbos dont like rocks.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Im not hating... Im telling you the bottom line:
If it's in the enigne bay it's not a remote mount
It doesn't spool until almost 3000rpm because you have a piece of ---- ass i4 2.5L engine and a poor feed. cgts combining the worst of everything. (few power pulses, and a bad power curve)

AFA increasing the spool rate. Adjust your wastegate to not creep open as much as possible. Add a boost can (sealed container) on the wastegate actuator line to slow it down somewhat.
Tear your turbine entry / feed pipes out replacing it with pipe of a decreased diameter and length.








Jag FTW. Catch cans are for stupid lazy bitches that can't solve blow-by problems. A catch can is only used by newbies to MASK a blow-by problem. They don't solve it. The correct way would be a PCV valve that refferances both intake manifold vacuum and pre-compressor vacuum that has a 1-way check valve installed on the intake manifold source to lock boost out.
That's the correct way to ventilate a crankcase with forced induction.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

No offense taken. Trust me when I say that I know the 2.5L is a shitty motor and that its not going to make a great deal of power.

As far as the remote mount...Only reason I called it that was because its not mounted directly on the exhaust manifold. But I understand what you are referring to.

Let me see if this is what you are talking about with reference to the crankcase setup. You are saying that I have a GOOD pcv valve that is hooked to intake manifold with a check valve inline that keeps the boost out. Now I have a second pcv mounted to the crankcase that runs its vacuum hose to the intake of the turbo, which if I am thinking about this correctly, will always be pulling a vacuum out of the crankcase. Let me know if I am not thinking about this correctly.

Any suggestions on a good pcv valve? What about check valves? I checked a local aquarium shop but all they had were very and would not work. Any suggestions on where to find them?

thanks for the help.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

You really don't need to do all that w/ the pcv setup. Like said above, run a breather filter off the valve cover and a hose to the ground from the crank case breather box. Re-plumbing it with all the check valves n ---- was done from the factory as an emissions issue because they didn't want you spewing oil vapors into the air all the time, where as you probably don't car anymore. I dunno what state you are in or what the laws are, but if you can remove your cat without legal problems, you definitely should. Its a huge restriction in a turbo application. You will see wayyyy better boost response with a decent 2.5in to 3in exhaust w/no cat, or even better with just a downpipe off the turbo.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

to be completely honest, I would rather keep some kind of emissions in place, and also not have oil spewing all over. If i need to run lines all over to set it up correctly, than I will. I am not trying to create further issues down the road.

Again, all the help and comments are appreciated.

Also, on a side note about the exhaust, it is 2.5 down pipe to a seriously choked cat and muffler. I will be removing everything after the DP to see what kind of response I can get out of the turbo.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

One PCV valve that is T'd to the manifold, and pre-turbo intake. On the line to the manifold, install a check valve so boost can not pass through the line, to the pcv valve, and into the crankcase.

Another trick is where you place the PCV or breather valve, cover that hole on the inside with a windage plate that is stood off of it 3/8 to 1/2 and inch. This keeps oil from being directly slung at the hole, which coincidently is a major reason many older OHV domestic engines burn so much oil. Their pushrods literally sling oil right out the engine via breather holes.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

OK, time for an update. still working on getting the pics. Will tomorrow for sure.

Got the valve cover buttoned up and plumbed with one line into the intake of the turbo and the other with a check valved pcv. Went for a short drive around the neighborhood and still some problems arise.

Took the air filter off and put a fine screen over the intake of the turbo and took the rest of the exhaust off and installed a 2.5" straight pipe with a turn down. Starts to spool much faster and I no longer have a leak at the valve cover. But.....

While it will come out of vacuum and hit 0 psi I cant seem to get it much higher than that (will a smaller .42 garrett compressor rather than the shitty ebay .50 compressor that I swapped on help at all?). If I lay into the throttle I seem to lose all power. It almost seems to be backfiring. If I give it gas slowly it will drive fine but with a good romping on the gas pedal it seems to cut out. So what I am thinking is that I am either losing fuel or air. Doesn't seem likely that I am losing air. But I also don't have any sounds of detonation either. I am working on getting a wide band to get rid of the A/F gauge, but it still doesn't make any sense to me that I am not building more boost under load.

As far as the losing power, could I be too rich? Sure smells like it.

Any help or suggestions?

Thanks

Chris

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I would say rich. Have you checked the charge piping for leaks?. Is the wastegate opening to early or creeping hard?

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Cant really say about the wastegate. Its a weird VW/Audi Garrett internal with no actuator arm. Cant seem to find any info on it. I dont think the charge piping has as leaks, as the BOV seems to be releasing a good amount of pressure.

Took it for another ride, and the A/F gauge is showing lean under any heavy throttle, but how accurate can that thing be? I mean this thing smells rich. My clothes reek of unburnt fuel. I have not pulled the plugs yet to look at them, but I will tomorrow. I was going to swap in colder plugs, but cant seem to find them anywhere.

Thanks, and keep the suggestions coming.

Chris

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Well if you have no cat it will smell rich sitting there at idle. And with a stock fuel system shouldn't you expect to be running lean with any type of boost? Look into some ford injectors I know they work for the 4.0 strokers not sure if they will work in yours. Maybe a FMU or something.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Have a 3:1 fmu but I start cutting out before I get into boost so I am not even getting to the point that the fmu will raise the fuel pressure. The only reason that I have an FMU is because I cant find anyone to program my computer.

As far as the injectors...I only have 1 in the tbi and finding a higher flow injector has be tough.

I have made an adjustable MAP sensor that I can raise the A/F ratio a little at a time but the more I raise the voltage the less drivable the thing is. I have the voltage at 5.5v (normal being around 5v) and it cuts out at even the lightest throttle under load. Which is what was making me think it was getting to much fuel from the start.

I need to get some premium gas today and check my plugs. Maybe gap them down to .28 instead of .35. Maybe the spark is getting blown when the boost starts to climb.

Will update later.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

OK, update with pictures.

first a picture of the entire setup with the new smaller vw/audi .48 turbine, greddy bov.

Attachment 19968

Next a pic of the wastegate. Hoping that someone has some info on it. It is dual port with no actuator. Any info would be great.

Attachment 19969

And just since some asked for them, here are two more pictures of the rig. Its not much, but it does the job.

Attachment 19970
Attachment 19971

Now for some questions....I am still cutting out at higher rpms. I am waiting on my wideband to really tell if I am running out of fuel, but I am also not really building any boost. It will go to 5psi sometimes but not all of the time. Also it seems that I am getting some fluttering from the turbine around 3600-3800rpms. This also the same time that its cutting out.

Would I really being sending pressure back to the turbine wheel if I am still on the throttle? I can here the BOV releasing the pressure when I let off the throttle but I still hear the chatter from the turbo.

Last question....What would be the causes of a turbo this small on a engine with a decent displacement(2.5L) to spool so slow? I dont even hear it start to spin until almost 3K rpms. I have gone over the entire setup and there arent any boost or exhaust leaks.

Thanks,

chris

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Nice setup man

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

check plug gap, install new plugs, check timing, get some management, post pics of the manifold and turbo setup - up close please.
why don't you just clock the comp housing around, and it'll have a straight shot at the intake mani- remove extra-long bendy pipe? this cannot hurt spool times either.... :)

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I rotated my compressor housing around to make it cleaner to plumb. I also had to rotate the cartridge so the oil feed line points up. Still waiting on my intercooler too. Mine also spools very quickly too, like 5 psi @ 1200 rpm. so I am thinking you definitely have issues. Do you run a check valve to your MAP sensor? I heard they tend to fail without a check valve. I don't have one on mine, but I just put mine together two days ago.

Attachment 19905
Attachment 19906

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Plugs are new and gap is set at .030. The compressor is where it is because I am planning on a intercooler in front of the radiator. I will try it though, cant hurt. I will post the results.

As for management, I kind find any for my engine outside of a full standalone kit.

Rob,

Saw your post when I did a google search. Setup looks good. I do have a check in the MAP and also built an adjustable map to fine tune the fuel curve. I wonder if yours is spooling so fast because of the water cooled center section?

On a side note, what is the part # for the colder plugs that you used? (saw it in your thread on another website).

Thanks for all the input.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I'll check on the plugs tomorrow. What do you have for a check valve on the MAP sensor? I ave been running mine without one, and now it is running like it was the last time it had a bad map sensor. :)

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I just have a vacuum T in line with the MAP. Like this.

------------------------------T------------------------------------
I
check valve

Let me know on the plugs.

chris

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

The plugs I have are Autolite 3924's. The guy at the parts store said that they were one range colder than stock.

I have another question for you. I think my engine may have some considerable blow-by. While idling, if I remove the oil fill cap there is a decent amount of air blowing out of there. Could you possibly check to see if yours is blowing out as well? I think I might try to remove the oil pan, and replace the rings from the bottom if I can. I just don't know if I will be able to slide the rod and piston out with the crank still in there.

Thanks,
Rob

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

exactly how were you planning on getting everything back in? Good luck with that ----.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I don't know. I probably won't be able to. :) It would be a lot easier than removing the head though.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Bump for a good YJ turbo thread.

I am also about to start my turbo. Here is the link:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=658004

Don't mean to hi-jack, but I will also need some guidence.

Rob, What engine / turbo you running?

Lookin good

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

Small update. Boost builds very quickly under more than half throttle. Also finally got my wideband in and it shows that I am a bit lean under WOT. Need to adjust the MAP sensor a bit more and get a new drain for the turbo. The one I have is leaking like a SOB under higher pressures.

Ohh, and I found out that the wastegate is set for 7psi. >:D

No signs of detonation at all but like I said it is running a bit lean so I do need to add a bit more fuel.

Will update when necessary.

Chris

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

What are you seeing on the wideband at WOT? Are you still using the stock pump? And are you pulling any timing out under boost?

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

I am seeing about 15 or 16 max under WOT. I have the stock pump and I am not pulling any timing out, as I have not found a good way to pull the timing yet. I would really like to see the wideband rich under WOT. Around 12.

The pump may be whats holding me back, but I have not gotten that far yet.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

15 or 16 to 1 @ WOT is way too lean. That is lean enough to burn a head gasket or a piston. That is even lean enough for it to misfire up top. I tuned all my supercharged Mustangs to about 11.8 to 1. I used a Walbro GSS340 pump in my Jeep. It is a high volume/high pressure pump. If your Jeep is TBI you should have lower fuel pressure than a multiport engine though, so you could not use that pump. I am sure they make a high volume pump for a lower pressure TBI system, or maybe add an inline pump.
I bought an MSD 6AL with BTM to pull timing. You can adjust it from the cab to pull 1-3 degrees of timing per pound of boost from the drivers seat. Great for hot days when you want to pull out a little more timing to be safe. You also get the benefit of the MSD box as well. It is basically a two wire installation. Very easy.

In my opinion, running boost without pulling timing and keeping the A/F ratio rich will definitely hurt your engine very soon.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

15 -16 is lean but I would not go as far as to say that its WAY to lean. Like I said in my earlier post, I need more fuel and I would like to be seeing around 12 under WOT. That way I am not just wasting fuel.

What do you show on a wideband under WOT? With a walbro pump and a 12:1 FMU I would bet that alot of fuel is being needlessly wasted in your setup, but I would like to know for sure.

In regards to the timing, I agree with you that I need to pull some out while under boost, however I have not found a way that I like yet.

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

We talked about this earlier, but what about a Megasquirt. I know you don't like the idea, but when you get the cash, just plop down for a built unit with a base program already installed.

Im already thinking and planning for one. But Im not even out of the hole yet with my turbo project. I start mine today

Re: wrangler remote mount boost Q's
 

A 2.5 with a T3.

Like I said, running an engine with cast pistons at WOT with a 15/16 to 1 air fuel ratio and no timing retard "should" blow up pretty quickly. But it's your Jeep. :) I have not put a wideband on mine yet. It would be nice if it were right around 11.5-12.0 to 1 though. Most engines will blow black smoke and misfire when the ratio gets too deep into the 10's, and mine seems to run very clean at the part throttle boost levels i've given it so far. I am not too concerned with wasting a little fuel under boost if it helps keep my engine together.
I am not even going to run mine at WOT until I get a wideband on it.