Why isn't this PCV/Vent setup working!
12-04-2008, 01:47 PM
#21
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Why isn't this PCV/Vent setup working!
It doesn't look much bigger, but that other guy's vent setup is a lot bigger. Keeping the stock PCV is a big restriction and that hose is easily twice the diameter with results in more than twice the volume/crossectional area. Still not big enough, IMO. I'd run that much to a 300 whp Honda engine... but as I stated how much the engine wants to breathe is particular to the specific model, and I know less than nothing about yours so I'm going to waffle and say the other setup you posted might be enough.
You aren't getting any real vacuum to speak of at the turbo inlet, not if your intake tract is set up correctly. I definitely wouldn't run one as there's oil vapor in the crankcase, regardless of how well baffled, and that will collect in your intake tract. Oil has an octane of about 70, and once it lights it stays on fire... Some of the internal combustion engine theory books (the ones actual automotive engineers read) have pictures of oil or oil-related carbon buildup that hotspots and ignites, and it keeps burning pretty fiecely all through the combustion cycle and causes pre-ignition. This is one of the major reasons incorrectly vented engines don't last as long as they should, especially non-turbo platforms that (built or not) get turbos strapped to them.
I'd vent to a catchcan mounted high up as possible, with a drain at the bottom run back to the oil pan or block so oil can gravity feed back, vented to the atmosphere. This will do away with crankcase vacuum at idle, and that's going to cause oil to lay against your valvecover gaskets and cam seals so if they are shitty the engine will pour... I'm sure you've owned an old beater with a shitty valvecover gasket that was fine when driving, but as soon as you shut the engine off all sorts of oil ran out onto the exhaust manifold and she started smoking underhood. Well, with this setup you will lose oil all the time if your seals aren't top notch, hint hint a thin layer of RTV on some VC gaskets can make a world of difference.
There are ways to vent to atmosphere under boost and retain PCV function at idle/cruise, but it's complex. If you put together a setup based on, and grasp the concepts, I've put forth here you'll be able to construct such a setup if you feel it's worth spending the time on. I'd rather go to the track and try to make my soggy *** car hook, which can be a real chore - no sense (from my perspective) to create more work. :P
You aren't getting any real vacuum to speak of at the turbo inlet, not if your intake tract is set up correctly. I definitely wouldn't run one as there's oil vapor in the crankcase, regardless of how well baffled, and that will collect in your intake tract. Oil has an octane of about 70, and once it lights it stays on fire... Some of the internal combustion engine theory books (the ones actual automotive engineers read) have pictures of oil or oil-related carbon buildup that hotspots and ignites, and it keeps burning pretty fiecely all through the combustion cycle and causes pre-ignition. This is one of the major reasons incorrectly vented engines don't last as long as they should, especially non-turbo platforms that (built or not) get turbos strapped to them.
I'd vent to a catchcan mounted high up as possible, with a drain at the bottom run back to the oil pan or block so oil can gravity feed back, vented to the atmosphere. This will do away with crankcase vacuum at idle, and that's going to cause oil to lay against your valvecover gaskets and cam seals so if they are shitty the engine will pour... I'm sure you've owned an old beater with a shitty valvecover gasket that was fine when driving, but as soon as you shut the engine off all sorts of oil ran out onto the exhaust manifold and she started smoking underhood. Well, with this setup you will lose oil all the time if your seals aren't top notch, hint hint a thin layer of RTV on some VC gaskets can make a world of difference.
There are ways to vent to atmosphere under boost and retain PCV function at idle/cruise, but it's complex. If you put together a setup based on, and grasp the concepts, I've put forth here you'll be able to construct such a setup if you feel it's worth spending the time on. I'd rather go to the track and try to make my soggy *** car hook, which can be a real chore - no sense (from my perspective) to create more work. :P
12-04-2008, 02:21 PM
#22
0.0 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Re: Why isn't this PCV/Vent setup working!
Grey RTV is good stuff.....Napa also has some ---- called "the right stuff" that works really well.
I was looking at my mazdaspeed3 (daily driver) to see how the OEM setup was done and its basically the same as mine, with the vent to the turbo inlet and all....which is leading to lovely carbon build up on the inside of the intake manifold per my last inspection at it....whatever, warranty is king on that...
Like I said, gonna add some extra venting, throw on a couple of water bottles to catch the oil vapor (held together with electrical tape) and see if it pukes any more oil. If it stops pressurizing the block then I can start investigating some other options (really liking the slash cut idea) to remove the oil vapor smell so I can drive it somewhere else besides the track and the dyno.
Before I can do anything though....I need to change the oil AGAIN as its diluted with fuel from blowbye gasses....
Hey JD...
On a side topic, how well do the honda trannies hold up to power? I know I can easily shatter my trans with moderate sized slicks and about 4-500whp within 1-2 passes...the car now is on trans number 3 or 4 as it stands...just curious...
I was looking at my mazdaspeed3 (daily driver) to see how the OEM setup was done and its basically the same as mine, with the vent to the turbo inlet and all....which is leading to lovely carbon build up on the inside of the intake manifold per my last inspection at it....whatever, warranty is king on that...
Like I said, gonna add some extra venting, throw on a couple of water bottles to catch the oil vapor (held together with electrical tape) and see if it pukes any more oil. If it stops pressurizing the block then I can start investigating some other options (really liking the slash cut idea) to remove the oil vapor smell so I can drive it somewhere else besides the track and the dyno.
Before I can do anything though....I need to change the oil AGAIN as its diluted with fuel from blowbye gasses....
Hey JD...
On a side topic, how well do the honda trannies hold up to power? I know I can easily shatter my trans with moderate sized slicks and about 4-500whp within 1-2 passes...the car now is on trans number 3 or 4 as it stands...just curious...
12-04-2008, 02:45 PM
#23
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Why isn't this PCV/Vent setup working!
B-series:
I was taking 804 whp and 501-503 wtq passes on a stock B-series 5th gear the day before yesterday because it was the only way we were getting traction, they like to let go at 850... well, they (5th gear) really likes to go at less than that but there's a difference between doing it all the time and doing it ten times for tuning reasons. Stock B-series gearsets, 1-4th gear, are better supported than 5th gear so they deal with power better. You can campagin a 4-600 whp drag car off of a stock gear B-series transmission with good results, they only catch a gear if you miss a shift but the whole thing doesn't scatter so you are left with an easy rebuild. Every so often you will shell the main shaft's pinion and/or the ring gear, if your driver is good and doesn't bog the car, on 24.5" slicks they will take 400+ passes before fatigue sets in - that's quite a lot. If you aren't a dedicated track car you can get away with more power as it doesn't get hammered on as much due to there being less traction on the street. There are more and more affordable gearsets for Hondas out there all the time, you can get in an out of what you "need" to build a reliable 9 second car for under a grand up to $3-4K for a Liberty(win)/Quaife(fail) setup. Past 900 the stock case is known to be weak and let go, there are billet cases on the market or you can reinforce the stocker a variety of ways.
D-series:
If you get rid of the stock diff, and don't start with a high mileage un-maintained unit, they are supposedly stock for stock stronger than B-series. There are a lot less big power D-series than B-series so information isn't as fluent. You can get inexpensive FDs and gears from places like MFactory/etc that sell for about what the cheaper B-series stuff goes for, and a lot of the big name drag guys (Bisi) mention that the gear design of the D-series box is superior as they are "stubbier," but whether or not they are made of comparable quality to B-series I do not know. I'm really happy with the ZC/Si hybrid gearbox I had built for my beater, some polishing of the gears and replacing the case bearings really makes it shift smooth. The #1 problem with the D-series trans is people thought they weren't worth as much or as good as B-series so they haven't been maintained, resulting in notchy shifting, etc.
CG trans:
This is the family of gearboxes that came in 86-89 Integra, brown top ZC, and 86-89 Integra. Bisi runs one in his F-series powered Insight, swears by them as being superior to even D-series. Meh, good luck finding one with less than a million miles on it.
All the newer K-series transmissions are junk and fall apart in stock vehicles owned by middle aged women who go everywhere at ten under the speed limit.
If you are considering a transmission swap you can't run any of the "good" Honda transmissions as they spin the wrong direction. You really need to look into the turbo or blower MR2. They both share the same internals, stout as ----, the cases(bellhousings) are a little different as the turbo boxes are for 3S-GTE and the blower units are for 4A-GZE. There are definitely others you can and should consider, but those leap to mind as they are easily as strong or stronger than Honduh boxes, stock for stock.
Do you have multiple carnage pics of your exploded gearboxes? There's a good chance the basic parts are pretty stout but the case is flexing causing main and lay shafts to hammer against each other and shear off gears, or something like that.
I was taking 804 whp and 501-503 wtq passes on a stock B-series 5th gear the day before yesterday because it was the only way we were getting traction, they like to let go at 850... well, they (5th gear) really likes to go at less than that but there's a difference between doing it all the time and doing it ten times for tuning reasons. Stock B-series gearsets, 1-4th gear, are better supported than 5th gear so they deal with power better. You can campagin a 4-600 whp drag car off of a stock gear B-series transmission with good results, they only catch a gear if you miss a shift but the whole thing doesn't scatter so you are left with an easy rebuild. Every so often you will shell the main shaft's pinion and/or the ring gear, if your driver is good and doesn't bog the car, on 24.5" slicks they will take 400+ passes before fatigue sets in - that's quite a lot. If you aren't a dedicated track car you can get away with more power as it doesn't get hammered on as much due to there being less traction on the street. There are more and more affordable gearsets for Hondas out there all the time, you can get in an out of what you "need" to build a reliable 9 second car for under a grand up to $3-4K for a Liberty(win)/Quaife(fail) setup. Past 900 the stock case is known to be weak and let go, there are billet cases on the market or you can reinforce the stocker a variety of ways.
D-series:
If you get rid of the stock diff, and don't start with a high mileage un-maintained unit, they are supposedly stock for stock stronger than B-series. There are a lot less big power D-series than B-series so information isn't as fluent. You can get inexpensive FDs and gears from places like MFactory/etc that sell for about what the cheaper B-series stuff goes for, and a lot of the big name drag guys (Bisi) mention that the gear design of the D-series box is superior as they are "stubbier," but whether or not they are made of comparable quality to B-series I do not know. I'm really happy with the ZC/Si hybrid gearbox I had built for my beater, some polishing of the gears and replacing the case bearings really makes it shift smooth. The #1 problem with the D-series trans is people thought they weren't worth as much or as good as B-series so they haven't been maintained, resulting in notchy shifting, etc.
CG trans:
This is the family of gearboxes that came in 86-89 Integra, brown top ZC, and 86-89 Integra. Bisi runs one in his F-series powered Insight, swears by them as being superior to even D-series. Meh, good luck finding one with less than a million miles on it.
All the newer K-series transmissions are junk and fall apart in stock vehicles owned by middle aged women who go everywhere at ten under the speed limit.
If you are considering a transmission swap you can't run any of the "good" Honda transmissions as they spin the wrong direction. You really need to look into the turbo or blower MR2. They both share the same internals, stout as ----, the cases(bellhousings) are a little different as the turbo boxes are for 3S-GTE and the blower units are for 4A-GZE. There are definitely others you can and should consider, but those leap to mind as they are easily as strong or stronger than Honduh boxes, stock for stock.
Do you have multiple carnage pics of your exploded gearboxes? There's a good chance the basic parts are pretty stout but the case is flexing causing main and lay shafts to hammer against each other and shear off gears, or something like that.
12-04-2008, 03:05 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Re: Why isn't this PCV/Vent setup working!
I'd have to look, but I have some pics laying around at home and there are plenty on probetalk.com....
Our most common failure point is blowin up 3rd gear...its actually physically smaller than the rest of them
The whole G series mazda transmission was designed for 4cyl econbox applications. It's the same gearset (short of final drive ratios) found in Ford Escort ZX2s, and 4cyl base probe, mx6 and 626s. Those cars put about about 115hp at best on a cold day...and mazda in all their infinite wisdom decided lets attach that same ecobox transmission to an engine that makes up to 100hp MORE stock. Take that and go up another 300hp and tranny soup (gross) is available on demand.
Some Protege people swap in the 3rd and 4th gears from the Mazda 323 GTX (AWD 1.6L Turbo) as they are a little beefier, but still break them. As far as I've been able to find, our only serious option are gears from PAR...a gearset from them runs more than my entire car is worth filled with hookers and blow.
I've given the yota transmission some thought, its cable shifted too IRC, so that would make it an adapter plate and axles away. We were also breifly discussing the SRT4 transmission, but I don't think it would come close to clearing the frame rail on the side of the engine bay.
Our most common failure point is blowin up 3rd gear...its actually physically smaller than the rest of them
The whole G series mazda transmission was designed for 4cyl econbox applications. It's the same gearset (short of final drive ratios) found in Ford Escort ZX2s, and 4cyl base probe, mx6 and 626s. Those cars put about about 115hp at best on a cold day...and mazda in all their infinite wisdom decided lets attach that same ecobox transmission to an engine that makes up to 100hp MORE stock. Take that and go up another 300hp and tranny soup (gross) is available on demand.
Some Protege people swap in the 3rd and 4th gears from the Mazda 323 GTX (AWD 1.6L Turbo) as they are a little beefier, but still break them. As far as I've been able to find, our only serious option are gears from PAR...a gearset from them runs more than my entire car is worth filled with hookers and blow.
I've given the yota transmission some thought, its cable shifted too IRC, so that would make it an adapter plate and axles away. We were also breifly discussing the SRT4 transmission, but I don't think it would come close to clearing the frame rail on the side of the engine bay.
12-04-2008, 03:32 PM
#25
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Why isn't this PCV/Vent setup working!
Frame rails can be modified. It's not uncommon to cut holes in 88-91 chassis to pass charge pipe through. I wouldn't think twice if the rest of the unit can be made to fit. At the rate SRT4s get wrecked you can find one easy as pie, the MR2 stuff is starting to command a bit of money IIRC.
---- adapter plates. What you need to do is have a shaft made that rides in the main journals of an empty block and in the bearing recesses of a hollowed out transmission. This will align the two so that you can weld the trans bellhousing so it bolts to the engine, don't forget two alignment dowels for precise location. You find a local clutch rebuilder (or approach ACT, etc) to mate a friction disc of the correct diameter to a friction disc hub that mates with the transmission. Pilot bearings can be looked up in generic catalogs (make sure of the rpm ratings) or made out of oil impregnated brass. Pretty easy if you can weld and have patience, it's mostly slow align/measure/think sort of work and the guys who like to plow through bolt-together jobs and see rapid progress really hate doing it.
---- adapter plates. What you need to do is have a shaft made that rides in the main journals of an empty block and in the bearing recesses of a hollowed out transmission. This will align the two so that you can weld the trans bellhousing so it bolts to the engine, don't forget two alignment dowels for precise location. You find a local clutch rebuilder (or approach ACT, etc) to mate a friction disc of the correct diameter to a friction disc hub that mates with the transmission. Pilot bearings can be looked up in generic catalogs (make sure of the rpm ratings) or made out of oil impregnated brass. Pretty easy if you can weld and have patience, it's mostly slow align/measure/think sort of work and the guys who like to plow through bolt-together jobs and see rapid progress really hate doing it.
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