what sleeves to go with!!!
 

well i am having trouble deciding what sleeves to get when i build my zc. i know of two reputable company's DARTON and GOLDEN EAGLE.now i know that GE says there godzilla sleeves are guaranteed to 60 psi boost,but darton has been around for a long time so its kind of a toss up who to go with i dont know how many of you have experiance with either company since most guys are budget builders but when i do it i want to do it once and not worry. i know liam on thezcr has used GE's and had alot of good to say about them considering before his new set-up now he made 378 whp on them and held for a long time before he just did his other build for 500+ hp. not sure if he is still using them but i cant see why he wouldnt. any have any opinions on who to go with and know of a reptuable person to install them with out ------- it up in the VA,DC,PA area.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

how much HP you looking for, i would just post it, cheaper and still very effective,

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

No.Both are reputable go with whoever is most convient for you.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Darton accually makes lots of the accual sleeves that most companies use when sleeving motors... :y

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

yea thats what i was thinking. its just when i build it i want to make sure that its pretty much bullet proof. if i want to run 30psi i just want crank up the boost and as nike states

JUST DO IT!!!

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

THe biggest difference between the two is that you can have darton sleeves shipped to you as a kit and you find a local machine shop to install them. The result depends on how good this shop works and is usually not warrantied.

With GE, they peform the job and it's warrantied. i used their warranty once...
The sleeves unfortunately leaked and contaminated the oil with prestone resulting in engine failure. They paid for back and forth shipping and re did the job under warranty.
Actually i am the one customer after which they started to include a sheet of paper with each block, notifying you to pour some BAR'S LEAK in your prestone to cure any leak.... i would give a bottle away with each job if it's really needed to make it work good!

One thing GE still doesn't tell you and I think this is VERY unfair, is that they send your block back all crooked and in order to have the crank spin free again, you need to have a CRANK LINE BORE performed on it to make it straight again. They do offer that service, but it's an EXTRA, that's probably because they don'T want to scare people away that they don't tell you about it but i assume most people find about it the hard way, when the realize that the crank ii jammed once tightened in the block!!

..and that infamous crank line bore operation will cost 200-300$ in a local machine shop and beware of the way they perform that very critical job. There's two techniques around... one of them greatly affects a honda engine's reliability.

here's my GE block it works good, but it,s been crank line bored the wrong way. I found out about the two techniques too late...

http://www.geocities.com/blaast97sh/...lesleeved2.jpg

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Details please?

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

X2....

my H22 block is down there right now (care of camp 1320). id rather write off the block and buy another than pay 931 dollars for a ------- paperweight... SHitty thing is that that is all im waiting on to put this fucker together....

Any add. info would be greatly appreciated... Im supposed to paypal them cash soon so they can ship it back. I called Golden Eagle to make sure that they dindt need the main caps and girdle (1320 told me they didnt)... and they told me that they have a plate that they use during the install that deems shipping the mains unesecarry... So i ASSUME that i shouldnt need to line bore in this case, or am i wrong????


Thx for any info....

Spike

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

fill us in blaast

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

So i got nervous and decided to talk to Golden Eagle directly today as my block is down there getting ready to come back via camp1320 (sick deal...931 shipped-HD sleeves and deck block).

They assuered me that they actually bolt the main saddles to a billet block while sleeving/AND ANY MACHINING OF thEIR BLOcks... and insist and that this is NO LONGER an issue... I was really adimate about not wanting to have to drive to so cal to throw the ------- thing through their window if they lied to me (politely), but they insisted that a line bore would not be neccessary... i guess for a time they didnt bolt them to the billet slab, and they had theswe issues. Supposedly fixed now..... Theres actually a really good writeup about it i dug up today ill try anfd remember to post the link tomorrow.... Its a very comprehensive illustrated depiction of their entire sleeving process/procedure... start to finish.... The link and the little talk with GE and 1320 maDE ME FEEL MUCH MUCH BETTER!!!

---- i need a new keyboard... and bump for more info anyways regarding any other experiences....

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Most shops will do the crank line bore by milling off a few thousands of material on the mating surface of the main caps, mount them to the block, (resulting in a oval crank hole) and they re-drill it to the stock bore size with a long drill bit to make the crank line straight again. Result: crank goes up a little and compression is raised a bit... no big deal!
But i recently found out a much more worrying drawback of this techinque: it also reduces by the same amount the spacing between the gears of the oil pump. With a lowered gap between these gears, chances of a oil pump failure are increased. I did break an oil pump before with no apparent reason on my personal forged h22 with catastrophic outcome....and a few customers of mine did too. ALL SLEEVED ENGINES...
I thought oil pump failures were a weakness of the h22 oil pump but honda has no weakness. As always, our tweaking does.
MAybe that's one more reason why GE won't offer the crank line bore too much... (they know all that ---- and on'T want to scare people away)

Oh, and the proper way to crank line bore now.... dead simple. You mount the main caps on, drill larger and use oversize bearings to keep the crank where it's supposed to be.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Thats good to hear I was worried it was in there process... i feel better now... I would definately make sure that If my block was line bored it was done the latter of the two ways, but it SHOULDNT need it. The sleeving process itself "shouldnt" distort ---- if the mains are torqued to spec- if you get what Im tryong to say....



Thanks for the 411 man!!!!!

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

definatly helped me out in understanding engine assembly info!!

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

what about benson? from what ive heard they do a killer job

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

never looked into them but i really dont want to send my block off there is some company right here in virginia that all they do is sleeve installs and they have a 3 day turnaround but i wll have to check into them more closley.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Benson is good stuff...I was going to go with them for an entire shortblock, but he kept trying to sell me acl bearings and cp pistons. i waant to use oem bearings asd endyn rollerwaves.I just didnt like trying to be talked out of what my decision was. I have a number of friends making well over 600 whp on the endyns and GE sleeves... Thats why I decided to go with them... That and they do have a good warranty... 1 year.

Im not bagging on Bensons work at all... i have heard equally good things about both. benson uses a custom Darton sleeve.....
Good luck

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

thats pretty much my set-up im going with i am going to go with the rollerwaves and som crower pro billit rods and i think i am going to with some dartons and i think it will take any and just about everything you could ever throw at it. but im not downing GE in any way but as blasst was saying they dont line bore so that really is an incomplete job if you ask me. i just dont want to pay 2 times for something that should have been done when they sleeve it. instead of xxx amount of dollars for the sleeves and the install of them and then pay another xxxx amount to finish what they started. just my .02 but if i can get it all done at once i would rather do it all at once to save time and some hard earned money.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Thank you, BLAAST!

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Just FYI: Benson charges extra for line bore as well... I asked about it when I inquired. His base price does include install deck bore and hone i believe... iof i remember correctly. I had taklkled to him about 2 months ago, right before he got his new shop up and running in idaho.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

thats cool. what its starting to sound like is that regardless whoever does the install its going to be an extra cost because nobody tells you it needs to be done and they dont do it with your package.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Here are the articles I was talking about regarding GEs process:

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/t...p_civic_hatch/

http://www.overboost.com/story.asp?id=464

an excerpt:

" Setting up the H22 on the press involves securing it to a flat slab of billet to keep it square. The billet is attached where the main bearing caps mount underneath the block, which is coincidentally how each block is secured in the various CNC machines at GE.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

thanks for more info!!!

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

well i hope they improved their "billet" because none of the H22 i had GE sleeve for me came back straight. Some of them, the crank would simply not go in, in the best of cases, it was jamming when aplying torque to the main caps.
They admitted that distortion of the block was normal and that the crank line bore was absolutely needed. Things might have changed since. That was back when i was talking to TED TIAGA, who's now dead :X.

despite that problem, I have to say, once installed and running, a GE block is pretty strong. The latest one I got has the copper wire option. Benson's kind of bitching at it but i think it's a nice feature for a good seal.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

so whats does it usually cost for GE to do the sleeving and then a round about for line boring?

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

I think this might be a problem with H22 blocks. I've seen a lot of redneck Johnny Bighammer style sleeve installs, and the B's and D's keep ticking after maybe sinking a sleeve once or twice.

The one we had sleeved locally came back as silly putty. It's been align bored, no oil pump gear conflict, and it just puts wierd sideload wear marks in two precise spots on #2 and #3 main bearings. Runs awesome NA, runs awesome low boost, the first time you hit over 6 psi it presses you back in the seat like the hand of god, 50 miles later it's dead with VTEC screen filled with bearing material and oil pressure gauge acting flaky.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=636369

Got mine done here... Machine work will be done locally by DG machine in Auburn.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

sounds real nice

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

i only saw B stuff but seems kinda pricey. i can get the darton for $258 for the set and then the other 600 and some dollars could go to machine work. they look pretty though!!!

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Yeah, i'll second that. I'm sure it's a H22 problem. I am not an engine guru but I am sure there's MUCH more machining involved to de-sleeve a H22 than a B series.

with Golden eagle, last time I did it, my cost for sleeving a h22a4 was 750$ ish. but I had them sleeve quite a few engines in the past so I'm sure there's some kind of a volume discount there..

Crank line bore: I have a local shop doing it for 150$ but that was THE WRONG WAY. however i don't see why it would be any more expensive the right way, except of course, if oversized crank bearings are more expensive.

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Hey blast:

Im wondering; was this a CLOSED deck h22.... for some reason im thinking it may have been... Just wondering....

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

no no, i never sent a close deck h22 for sleeving.
Just h22a4's...... so open deck...

But don't get me wrong: sleeved/Forged H22's aren't that bad. i ran such setups for years now and once they're installed and working, they're strong and reliable. my first sleeved H22a4 was used for 2 years by me, for another year by another guy and it changed owners twice since! Damn, this 4 years old engine saw 5 different cars, 8 different turbo setups, some of them at as much as 27 psi of boost, it sounds like a ------- diesel but has never been re-opened and is still running strong as far as i am aware of! >:D

Here's a picture of the OLD golden eagle sleeves I had in my first h22, 4 years ago. those are the one that leaked and GE redid the job on the warranty.
It has evolved since. note the absence of the copper wire as well as the fewer supports all around:

http://www.geocities.com/blaast97sh/sleeves_detail.jpg

***note how we can still see the drilling marks from when I tried to do "block posting" !!! :y Back then, nobody really knew if forged pistons were ok with FRM sleeves!! AHAH! i tested it!! definitely doesn't work! :)

Re: what sleeves to go with!!!
 

Good info.. Thank you! :6