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strength of stock honda internals
shooting for 350hp on a jdm b20a, closed deck aluminum block. will be tuned obd1 and uberdtata by a pro or not me cause im not. Using a WB02. Im wondering in all things being equal would a stock rod, shotpeened hold up assuming it doesnt detonate or is it just best to get aftermarket.
Can you relseeve a closed deck and is it worth oringing for 350 hp. Looking at using a T3 turbo similar tot the gt28 rs if I can find the trims ratios. Anyone know. I want a standard t3 mount lower boost spool but pull to about 7k max. Like i said 350 at the wheels is my goal. Thanks Mike Oh and Ive search and been reading alot butt heres just too much porn distracting me, its great |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
stock pistons/rods?
wont last. |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
You should just shot peen your cock for all the good its going to do you, and to only rev it to 7000 isn't going to get you 350 even at 30psi of boost. You need pistons, rods and I thought b20a were open deck ???
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
Awesome! Two tard posts of zero worth! Ignore them! Speed Phreak made 340 whp off 12 psi on a 2.0 liter LS at 7000 rpms, with smaller valves and smaller ports than B20A.
B21A1 or B20A3/5? I think the A3 is USDM and A5 is JDM, but it's been a minute. Intake valves are 2mm o/s compared to LS and exhausts are .25 mm o/s. Nice straight shot on the intake ports into the combustion chamber. If you are trying to stuff this into a Civic/Integra, give up. Engine hangs at a different angle, you WILL have problem with oil pickup tube not being fully immersed in oil during some cornering/accleration/braking situations. Unless you feel like fabricating oil pickup and oil pan w/ baffles. Your Prelude distributor is already OBD1 compliant, and if it' 90-91 Si you even have OBD1 ECU plugs - insert 92-95 Civic/Integra ECU and go pls kthx. Prepare to butcher or fab from the ground up your front motor mount bracket. Closed deck is a non-issue, cylinder shift only happens during detonation with open deck blocks - I have never broken apart a Piglude B20A block before but I'm going to ASSume the sleeves are the same as D/B-series and *fragile* with the block cast around them. Check the block filling thread in the tech section, I'd do it midway up the bore leaving coolant space at the bottom of the passage and between the top of the epoxy and the closed deck. I have a set of stock rods/pistons at home, rod is comparable to LS in sizing/design. Has the wierd H-series 22mm wristpin. I believe the rods are same dimensions as H23, if not the same exact piece. As with all Honduhs, I'm pretty sure stock rods and pistons are just fine - until you detonate. I'm going to ASSume knock limit is the same as LS at 350-380 whp, but tossing in a set of mild NA cams with valvetrain and upping revlimit a touch will likely raise that. Make sure you're running a good sized turbo, T3/T04E hybrid, as the usual junkyard stuff will strangle the heat trying to exit the engine through the exhaust and lower your knock limit a LOT. If you have to go junkyard, HX35 or HY35 is for you. |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
stock internals will desinigrate sooner or later. u shall find out n post carnage pics
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
350whp on stock internals is doable, but crazy. I love j0seph davis.
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
Joe I believe he is talking about the JDM B20A that is from accords, not the prelude B20. The accord one doesn't sit at that funny angle.
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
Uhmmm i've seen a few 400 whp stock block B18's on HT and Jeff Evans has his stock block GSR running 360 whp and now 390whp..and he has been running it for more then a year now since he rebuild it.
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
ya one guy did it and it lasted a month ::)
bottom line. stock honda motor = blows up pistons will break first even w/ a good tune. they are not designed for that kind of cylinder pressure bottom line. do you want to make 350whp for a little while maybe one time? or make it for a long time. no no, i take it all back. go do it... it'll last forever trust me >:D |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
Awesome! Two tard posts of zero worth! Ignore them! Speed Phreak made 340 whp off 12 psi on a 2.0 liter LS at 7000 rpms, with smaller valves and smaller ports than B20A.
B21A1 or B20A3/5? I think the A3 is USDM and A5 is JDM, but it's been a minute. Intake valves are 2mm o/s compared to LS and exhausts are .25 mm o/s. Nice straight shot on the intake ports into the combustion chamber. If you are trying to stuff this into a Civic/Integra, give up. Engine hangs at a different angle, you WILL have problem with oil pickup tube not being fully immersed in oil during some cornering/accleration/braking situations. Unless you feel like fabricating oil pickup and oil pan w/ baffles. Your Prelude distributor is already OBD1 compliant, and if it' 90-91 Si you even have OBD1 ECU plugs - insert 92-95 Civic/Integra ECU and go pls kthx. Prepare to butcher or fab from the ground up your front motor mount bracket. Closed deck is a non-issue, cylinder shift only happens during detonation with open deck blocks - I have never broken apart a Piglude B20A block before but I'm going to ASSume the sleeves are the same as D/B-series and *fragile* with the block cast around them. Check the block filling thread in the tech section, I'd do it midway up the bore leaving coolant space at the bottom of the passage and between the top of the epoxy and the closed deck. I have a set of stock rods/pistons at home, rod is comparable to LS in sizing/design. Has the wierd H-series 22mm wristpin. I believe the rods are same dimensions as H23, if not the same exact piece. As with all Honduhs, I'm pretty sure stock rods and pistons are just fine - until you detonate. I'm going to ASSume knock limit is the same as LS at 350-380 whp, but tossing in a set of mild NA cams with valvetrain and upping revlimit a touch will likely raise that. Make sure you're running a good sized turbo, T3/T04E hybrid, as the usual junkyard stuff will strangle the heat trying to exit the engine through the exhaust and lower your knock limit a LOT. If you have to go junkyard, HX35 or HY35 is for you. wow you asume alot in there ::) |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
C'mon Johnny. I'm also one of those guys at 355whp on stock internals. Also, I dont baby my car like some of those HT sissies. My engine doesnt see a single day w/o several 3rd gear 15psi rippers to 8400. Hell, my drive to work is all but 2m at the most, and every time I get home my peak/hold on the boost controller reads 1.20bar & 8488 lol
I like to think of the limits of stock rods in terms of Ft/lbs of TQ being produced, especially on D series. As for the pistons, it comes down to the knock limit of pump gas. If it doesnt ping, your golden. |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
thanks allI apprieciate the input. Yes its the JDM B20A1 from the 86-89 accords and yes its going into a 89 accord. The stock accord ecu is liomited at 6750 rpm so i wasnt sure if I could exceed that even with obd1 upgrade and uber running a P06 ecu. Im going to have ittuned right so hopefully there wont be any detonation. Thw rods are the exact same as the h23, b20a5. It is a closed deck and I wasnt sure if you can have a closed deck resleeved. This is more of a will it work over how long itll work. Im planning on biulding up anither block Ive got around Im just curious if honda biulds there stuff to last and a little perforkamnce or just to last a reallylong time. The 350 goal is a goal and well see. Id like to keep alot of drivability so a turbo that will spool around 3 -3500 max. Im not sure about those turbos listed I ll have to look into those. Thanks
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
Originally Posted by leed
C'mon Johnny. I'm also one of those guys at 355whp on stock internals. Also, I dont baby my car like some of those HT sissies. My engine doesnt see a single day w/o several 3rd gear 15psi rippers to 8400. Hell, my drive to work is all but 2m at the most, and every time I get home my peak/hold on the boost controller reads 1.20bar & 8488 lol
I like to think of the limits of stock rods in terms of Ft/lbs of TQ being produced, especially on D series. As for the pistons, it comes down to the knock limit of pump gas. If it doesnt ping, your golden. |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
Originally Posted by random-strike
pistons will break first even w/ a good tune. they are not designed for that kind of cylinder pressure bottom line.
Given that a hunk of aluminum is half as strong at 600 deg F as it is at room temperature I can ASSure you that it is not the cylinder pressure, it is the temperature as you approach meltdown! Any pressure spikes from incipent detonation that actually break the lands... are just a symptom of running the engine too damn hot.
Originally Posted by highroller54
wow you asume alot in there ::)
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
and I will assume that pressure and temperature aren't related.
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
Ben Strader may teach you that volumetric efficiency ---- in his LIES 101 class, because that is what the industry wants taught. But he's not exactly sold on the Ideal Gas LIE - I believe he referred to his views as Mass-ometric Efficiency.
And when dealing with sufficient coolant (water formed by combustion reaction OR from outside injection) the temperature DROPS significantly while the pressure goes up. Strength of the aluminum piston is maintained, pressure is maintained, temperature goes down. Latent heat of evaporation - it's what your engine is having for dinner. Open any textbook on steam turbines to understand what is going on here. That Charles Fayette Taylor Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice crap lauded as a PRIMARY SOURCE for combustion theory means about as much as it's erroneous... you know, the bibliography where a good half of his cited sources say things that contradict what they are supposed to support? |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
joe, tell us about your dream turbo/engine setup. I want to know. You should teach a hmt class.
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Re: strength of stock honda internals
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
And when dealing with sufficient coolant (water formed by combustion reaction OR from outside injection) the temperature DROPS significantly while the pressure goes up. Strength of the aluminum piston is maintained, pressure is maintained, temperature goes down. Latent heat of evaporation - it's what your engine is having for dinner. Open any textbook on steam turbines to understand what is going on here. That Charles Fayette Taylor Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice crap lauded as a PRIMARY SOURCE for combustion theory means about as much as it's erroneous... you know, the bibliography where a good half of his cited sources say things that contradict what they are supposed to support? But I am trying to get this straight, exactly how much water formed by combustion is there. I mean obviously if you have more or less fuel.. is there more or less water formed during the combustion. |
Re: strength of stock honda internals
Spenser, I'd probably run a 351W poured with block filler (poured solid if track-only trailerqueen) on a set of inexpensive forgings, girdle, and whatever used, cheap aftermarket heads I could scrounge up. Ported GT40 lower intake, BIG turbo. The transmission would be held together with a prayer - but you weren't asking about that, were you? :P Sitar @ www.toohighpsi.com laid 670 whp while spinning slicks on the dyno rollers with a *stock* bottom end 351W out of a '72 F-150, and has run 9's with less than $3000 spent. Look at the budget build on his page - heh. It doesn't take a lot of money, and all that shiny underhood ---- isn't needed until you run Pro-Stock or the like. Most of you HMT kids understand that by your second or third build.
For every pound of gasoline, two pounds of water is formed. Roughly. Combustion inefficiencies abound due to real world designs being a compromise of the ideal physics involved, as well as limitations of the fuel involved. Injecting a ratio of 25-50% water(/diluent) to gasoline, by volume, is a significant but still a small fraction of the water in the combustion chamber. Gasoline makes optimum power at slight rich mixtures, although less heat is produced, because optimum amounts of working fluid (technical term for wet steam/water) and minimal amounts of contaminants to the working fluid (unburnt HC, CO, NOx, etc) are present to kep the working fluid from doing it's job. Compare gasoline to methanol - you ALWAYS make more power on methanol because it has less contaminants as a byproduct of combustion. |
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