My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Whats up guys. This is Jeremy aka berminator's friend Gavin who was at the install a while back. I had a 20v 4AGE powered AE92 Corolla wagon down there and I can remember a few of you guys calling me a ----- and all this for not wanting to turbo it. Well, a while back a foreign object found its way into my #4 combustion chamber and destroyed the piston and the three intake valves. So, the obvious course of action was to throw in a set of the forged, oil cooled and ceremic coated 8.9:1 pistons from the late-model 4AGZE. Becuase the 20v silvertop shares the rest of the internals with the 4agze, my motor will be able to handle 350+ hp all day long with this setup.

http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...f/carsmall.jpg

For those who don't know, the 20v 4AGE is a 1.6L twin cam with five valves per cylinder and ITBs from the factory. This is the later version of the American 4age which was discontinued after the AE92 GT-S. In Japan, the motor was found in the Corolla Levin and Trueno, which were kinda like Toyota's Integra. I have the earlier version of the motor, which was made arround 93-95 and had the 4agze internals, minus the pistons. The later 20v had much much weaker internals but larger ports.
Anyhow, sorry for the history lesson...

Here is what I am thinking of using / have for my setup so far:

4agze 8.9:1 pistons* (Soon to be flycut for the 5th valve, to keep the motor non-interference)
- http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...f/gzeslugs.jpg
TRD .8 mm head gasket*
MR2 3sgte injectors*
SW20 fuel pump
Garrett T3 .42/.48 turbo*
- http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...f/EPSN0003.jpg
- http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...f/EPSN0020.jpg
- http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...f/EPSN0017.jpg
Custom log manifold*
- http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...f/EPSN0016.jpg
Alluminum Civic radiator
ARP bolts/studs
Cosmo racing e-bay special FPR
DSM BOV
Smallport 4ag oil pump*
Flex-A-Lite oil cooler + oil filter relocator*
- http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...f/EPSN0027.jpg
Starion, SRT4 or other FMIC that will fit (Short on space)
2 1/4" charge piping
Custom 3" downpipe and 2.5" for the rest
Stock intake manifold for now
Ford EDIS
MegaSquirt n' Spark

The things with a * I already have.

Big pic of the car:
http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam..._stuff/car.jpg

What my engine bay looks like at this point:
http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...yminushead.jpg

This is what the motor looks like together. The only pic I could find was during the install, which sucked bigtime as you can see.
http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliams/20v3.jpg

My dash setup. Thats an AE92 GT-S tach, mounted where my speedo was. That blue thing is an Apex-i RSM, which tells me speed, RPM, 0-60, stuff like that. I am going to try mounting some gauges where the tach was originally.

http://homepage.mac.com/gavinwilliam...stuff/dash.jpg

I will be using an aftermarket Civic radiator because my turbo doesnt quite clear the stock one.

Just baught a wideband O2 sensor, and Apex-i oil and boost gauges for the dash.

There is a guy, Yasin aka slownrusty on Club4ag who made an AE86 coupe with a very similar setup, only 8.0:1 pistons. At 4.5 PSI he made 204 RWHP. He is currently running 7 psi and putting down 218 whp. So yeah.. my car should whip.

I'll keep this thread updated. Let me know what you guys think!

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

That turbo will be too small. That motor pulls way too high. Doesn't that redline in the 9's?

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

I have heard that criticism before, and I know on a B16 this is a concern, right?

People actually recommend using t25s for my motor, depending on the application. They have bean known to work with no problems. I dono what to say.. It makes sense to me that it would be too small but its been shown otherwise.

Oh and my motor redlines at 7800, but yeah it doesnt take much at all to change that. Certianly nothing to do with the rods or crank.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Not that is wont work, but there may be better choices for larger hp gains up top. At 8k it may just blow hot air.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

I should be able to break 300 fwhp by about 15 psi, thats enough for me personally. Maybe it will blow hot air, we'll see.
If I boosted it to the 20-or-so psi my motor could handle than yeah I'd buy that.

Thanks for the input and I hope to see you again on the 10th.
Oh, and do you know anything about Megasquirt? I will be needing a good tuner soon.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Cant say that I do, sorry. I dont know anyone in the area that uses megasquirt.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Hmm. Is a tuning platform a tuning platform, to any extent? Maybe getting a wideband and learning how to street tune myself is the way to go..

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

You could always get bigger injectors and S-AFC hack. Maybe use an MSD BTM for boost retard. My Toyota knowledge is extremely limited so I couldnt tell you what injectors swap in. This is kinda crude but it's been shown to work in pretty much any setup.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

300whp with a .42/.48 is pushin it. go with something bigger.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

I'm chill for now. Im gona hang out arround the 250WHP mark for a while.

Fulcrum- I have the AW11 3SGTE 430's, I shouldnt have to replace them for a while.
I allready have my mind made up on MSn'S.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

It's pretty straight forward. Just play with the software a bit, get familiar with it. I take it you've read up on www.megasquirt.info quite a bit.

If you need a fully built/tested megasquirt with a laptop lemme know. I "might" have one for sale ;)

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

so youve tuned a celica with megasquit snafu?

can you give me any details. im going to be doing this in a few months with my 87 gts with a 3sge

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Whoa, that'll be ------- ill. Is it a Beams motor? Have you seen Bill Sherwood's 3sge AE86?
Sounds like Snafubmx has the 4 or 7A powered Celica, not the 3S.

I have read a lot of the MS site, still learning though.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

yuo wont even make 250 whp with that turbo.. its way too small.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

its not a beams but its the first gen iron tank 3sge with the same block as the 3sgte the motor came stock in 86-87 not sure about 88 and i have the crank and rods from a 3sgte. ct26 from a 7m 3sgte manifold. just saving for other stuff before i finish this setup. that corolla should be a beast when its done.
toyota power >:D

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

wait till i get to japan boys....a 20v corolla with a huge ball bearing turbo are in the plans.... >:D
3 more months... ;D

no more honda for me.... ;)

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

sad but true, you'll have a hell of a time trying to squeeze 250whp out of a t25 on a high revving motor. i would go for a .48/.60 at the very smallest if you want anywhere near 250whp.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

>:D come to the dark side!

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

if i had your honda, i would have said that a long time ago :P

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Its a T3 .42/.48. The 20v responds extremely well to boost, that being the reason I couldnt pass up the opprotunity to turbo even though I loved my motor N/A.

So reguardless of this I am not going to be able to get that much power through this turbo? Even though I should be making well over 200 WHP at less than 5 psi, as has been shown in the past? I have been trying to use your formula for calculating my required CFM but am having trouble converting litres to CM^3. Great rescource BTW, for us n00bs.

This is my first, well, 'real' car you guys might say. Big difference between 150whp N/A and 200 whp from a turbo so if this thing cant flow enough to eat Supras I'll be okay with that, for now.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, nobody on Club4ag pointed this out as a possible problem dispite stating my eventual HP goals.

rawr - Chec this out. This is Bill's AE86 (one of them).
http://www.billzilla.org/ae863sgebay5.jpg
I bet he would be happy to help with any questions. Hes a really great guy.

This is the guy's AE86 who made the 204 WHP at 4.5 psi. He has to sell it, sadly.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...e=STRK:MESE:IT

The envy of all of Club4ag. So bling... A LOT of time and effort whent into that car.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

try to find a comp. map for that turbo, and you'll see that it will take high boost from a turbo that size to reach you're desired hp, but that turbo becomes inefficient at higher boost levels on higher revving motors. if your stock motor is 150bhp, that is roughly 130whp, 5 psi from that turbo, may give you 30-40whp, so really you'd be more like around 160-170whp, but yeah, around 200bhp if you just want it to sound better ;)

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Haha I'm not just making ---- up. I cant defend this either because I obviously don't know as much about this stuff as you guys, but I'm not pulling #s out of my ass.

I will continue to do my research.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

he's running a hybrid t3/t4 (he doesn't mention exact specs). it won't be hard to reach the hp level you want, all we're saying, is it's going to be hard with that small turbo. if you get a bigger turbo that will flow more cfm's, you'll be good to go. the .48/.42 is one of the smallest t3's produced, you'll be able to pull 200whp out of it, but not at 5psi, and not much more than 200whp, but it will work ;)

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Hmm ok.

I still don't see the direct connection between the psi that my turbo will be able to hold and the power that my motor produces, and how a person could calculate one with the other without factoring in other things, like that fact that I have 3 intake valves & ITBs with internal velocity stacks in my manifold.

Ok like for example, if you had say a DSM running the 11 psi or whatever that they run stock. It is possible to increase HP without actually increasing boost through other mods, correct? So arrant there many other factors that result in the actual power figures?

I'm really not trying to argue, just understand.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

yes, you're totally right, but turbo's become inefficient at certain boost levels, rpm's etc. turbo's have to breathe and be able to keep pushing air with out over working itself. think of that turbo like a small wheel on a bike, you're gonna be pedaling your ass off with small wheels trying to keep up with a guy that has bigger wheels but is only pedaling half as fast. the harder the turbo tries to keep up, the hotter the air gets, the less efficient the turbo is. that turbo WILL NOT make power in the upper rpm's, and that turbo WILL NOT be effecient enough to get 250whp.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

IC this makes sense to me, the motor is breathing harder on each stroke to produce this power, multiplied by rpm...

So is the loss in efficiency only because the air is hotter? Would my 8.9:1 compression pistons change anything (9.0:1 with the TRD head gasket)? Thats relitavely high for my motor, people usually go with the 8.0:1 pistons with a thicker HG.

I also dont understand how if the turbo can hold 5psi to the top end, what the difference would be between having a t3 and a t3/t4. Just because the air is hotter?

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Some day I'm gonna have a son named Gavin

Nice setup =)

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Ha, thanks man =)

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

the difference is cfm's ;) 5 psi from a small t3 is no where comparable to 5 psi from let's say a 60 trim t3/t04e.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Aah my brain hurts :)

So 5psi after the TB will allways ammount to something different between the two turbochargers? So air temp is not the only other factor? What am I missing?

CFM is the volume of air that comes out of the turbo correct? What difference does this make on the intake side if it can hold psi?

I'm sure this will click eventually..

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

First post, saw you're post on club4ag and wanted to check it out.

The difference is the VOLUME of air (oxygen) - the PRESSURE is irrelevant.

The reason the other 20v turbo was able to make 200whp at such low boost is there was a large volume or quatity of air (ie oxygen) being forced into the motor.

For instance, say you have a garden hose, no matter how much pressure is behind the water you can only get 1X amount of water through the hose. Now if you had a fire hose you could move 3X the amount through without maxing it out.

The concern is the t3 with the compressor/turbine set up you have will be working so hard it will max out and force air so hot into the motor all your going to do is detonate/ping and harm your motor trying to produce the HP @ the rpms the 20v motor will reach.

Andrew

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Ok so it is all about heat then. I understand now thanks a lot guys.

So what do you guys think I should run for psi safely on my motor?

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

It's about exhaust volume x turbine speed/compressor setup x output volume - not psi.

A properly set up turbo system is designed to run within the parameters of the turbo, what everyone here is trying to say is the T3 turbo and horsepower you're trying to see is on the outside of what you can realistically see.

I'd imagine you could see 190-220 crank hp easily enough (say 165-190 at the wheels) before you'll run into problems with the turbo's turbine spinning so fast that it overheats the turbo ( if you push it too far it'll crap out and destroy itself ).

But I haven't done any research of the volumetric efficiency and ability of the 20v to give you any real world answers.

Andrew

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Cool. I think I will swap in the .60 comp wheel from a 280zx to be safe.

Thanks guys, glad I posted on here!

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Im glad too there Sweet Tits! :P

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Hey, what can I say.

Is it dificult to swap the comp wheel on a turbo? Whats involved?

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Rebalancing by a professional I'm afraid.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Oh IC. Later on down the line I guess than..

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

You comin down on the 10th?

Re: My 20v turbo Corolla wagon project
 

Yes I will be there but my motor wont be built by then (waiting on valves from Japan). Maybe I'll bring my 280zx and a new downpipe or something fun to like that.