MERCEDES 190E
 

Good Day to you all

I own a 1993 Mercedes 190e 2.0l 8v with k e jetronic and a 4 speed automatic gearbox.

points to consider

- i do not plan on changing the engine for a larger displacement one
- i do not plan on changing the gearbox coz i just had it overhauled and it runs smoother than my mums brand new c180 cgi.
- even though my mum owns a new merc, doesnt mean im a spoilt rich kid. we work hard for our money here in south africa and we like to make cents;D. i plan on doing this project in stages so i can work it into my budget comfortably.

this is what i am planning on doing. any advice or suggestions from somebody that has experience with this vehicle and injection system will be greatly appreciated.

HEAD
- port and flow the head
- valves and springs to suit the new head design
- a nice high lifting aftermarket cam

that should give me enough power till i add the turbo to the mix.

INJECTION
- 4 x injectors from 560SEC
- stick 2 of the existing injectors into the fuel rail ends
- fuel distributor from 300e
- so i will have 6 injectors in total

do i need to swap anything else to support this? ie fuel pump, eha valve from 300e?

TURBO

- custom manifold for t25/t28 turbo, will the turbo manifold from a gti golf fit on my block?
- t25/t28 turbo with internal wastegate
- intercooler, i plan on running the intake pipe to my existing airbox to save cost of fabricating a new one. it also has the vacuum fuel pressure regulator in it to save making a new one.
- dump/ bov valve
- oil cooler, i plan on running the return line through the turbo to prevent drilling a hole in my block and so that cold oil goes to the turbo. will this reduce the overall efficiency of the oil cooler?

i also plan on ceramic coating the exhaust manifold and intake manifold. heat sheilding the turbo and air filter.

will let you guys know how it goes.

please offer suggestions if you have any that are worth considering.

please bear in mind that im not a drag racer. just want some nice pwer and to own a nicely setup little 190e8)

if i remember correctly. its been a while since i worked on porsche's jettronic system. the jet tronic system uses the plate inside the intake to regulate fuel based on air flow. since your planning on boosting this system the jet tronic system will not work or it will be very limited. you will have to build a modern fuel injection system. theres a company out there that sells the screw in injector bungs that replace the jettronics mechanical injectors with bosch style injectors. you will need to wire the system, add fuel rails, add a fuel pump, add a fuel pressure regulator and lastly add a megasquirt ecm to control it all. this is a lot of work just for the fuel system but it will pay off when you mash the throttle.

btw: wtf is a mums :)

dats my mum boet, my mother!! the lady who gave birth to me.

ok i have done some further research. the t25 is wastegated at 7psi and my distributor allows for a 8 degree retard. my standard compression is 9.6:1. do i need to lower the compression any more for this low boost?

the standard fuel system should be fine for such low boost pressure if i adjust the fuel pressure via the lambda tower and run an octane booster.

any opinions?

im running 10 psi of boost on my 2.2 gm ecotec engine and it has a compression ratio of 10:1.
im using stock pump and fuel pressure with an extra injector controller.

awesome! I really cant w8 2 get this thing on :-)

oh btw did u play with your timing at all?

no. timing adjustment really isnt needed at that low boost level.

my car runs on 95 octane lead replacement petrol. i have read somewhere that octane booster with methanol in them damage fuel pump internals. is this true? i have also heard of guys mixing their own octane booster by mixing 3parts diesel(750ml) , 2parts paraffin(kerosene)500ml and 1 part methylated spirit(undyed)250ml and putting in 250ml in a 55l tank. how safe is this?

the turbo that i am getting is wastegated at 7 psi and can operate at 12 psi unwastegated.

would it be safe to just up the fuel pressure at 7 psi boost and

retard timing 3 degrees, up fuel a bit more and use octane booster for when i have it unwastegated?

sorry for all the questions. just exploring the possibilities

i am unsure about the fuel mixes. we have different fuels here in the us but i cant imagine mixing your own fuel can be safe.

as far as the fuel pressure increase. the higher the fuel pressure the less volume the pump flows. so keep that in consideration. the more timing retard you give it the less power you will make. 3 degrees timing retard on only 7 psi is way too much and you will lose power.

what you guys think of the t3 0.48 turbine and 0.42 compressor ?

i hear from alot of people that this thing comes on boost quick but drops off at about 6-7k rpm.

my friends say i should just go with a t3/t4 0.63 turb and 0.6 comp. but i have some fears in this regard.

firstly i have seen alot of guys breaking their motors with this turbo coz it forces the engine to operate in a very high rpm range. but they mostly have 16 and 20valves. mine is a 8v so it can handle more flow at high rpm.

secondly, i would need a fifth injector or something to get in the extra fuel. i want to keep the stock cis. enriching the mixture via the lambda tower increases fuel output across the band, not just in the upper end. so my turbo would have to match my cars power band or be effective throughout the whole band to prevent fuel wastage or detonation.

would the t3 be my safest bet? considering my tachometer says a max 7000rpm( i know it can do more than that but mercedes obviously put that there to keep it within a safe range.)

the t3 .48 a/r housing will be great for low rpm boost. the t3/t4 will be great for mid range rpm power. engine life is all in the tune. pick the turbo based on your driving habits. if you need low rpm boost and you wont ever be at high rpm then the t3 .48 is best for you.

you will need an extra injector controller. its not advised to use one injector as some cylinders will run richer or leaner then others because theres no guarantee that the same amount of fuel will enter each cylinder. the best way to run an extra injector controller is by adding an injector to each cylinder runner that way there is no way to run a cylinder lean/rich.

yes, i see they use that method with the kit they make for these cars. but its expensive.

i found out from my mechanic that the bosch injectors are quite interchangeable.

the ones for the 2.3 190e and 450 se are the same. i think they are around 575 or 600cc.

would this serve the same purpose?

there not that expensive. i paid 200.00 for my eic, 100.00 for 4 new lucas 42# injectors, fuel rail - free, fuel line- ~50.00 depending on what you use. a custom dyno tuning session can cost ~1000.00.

what do u mean interchangeable? your mechanical injectors cannot be interchanged without redoing your injection system.

would you care to elaborate on this? what exactly needs to be changed?

coz according to my knowledge, there is no ecu controlling the fuel. my mech showed me that there are no electronic devices connected to the injectors themselves. therefore bigger injectors would mean more fuel. the mixture is adjustable via a lambda tower where you can make the mixture richer or leaner. and the airflow meter gives more fuel with more airflow.all mechanical. and the spark is contolled my the distributor that uses a vacuum advance connected to the intake manifold.

i am happy with this mechanism at this stage. as it allows me to look cool with the bonnet open and grease all the way to my elbows.lol

but really, im a bit of a traditionalist. i like the k-jetronic the way it is. it has to be a good system if i can get 600km per 55l tank. thats pretty good when you consider that its a 2.0 8v automatic with aircon and mechanical injection.

i think i myt just go with the k03 from a 1.8 audi. i know its a small turbo but it will give me the lower end torque that this car is missing. i know im not maximising this cars power band coz those huge 8v can make big top end. but im not a racer and i dont wana kill myself. so 4-6 psi at low rpm is more than enuf fun for my daily runner.

but i really appreciate you taking the time to give me advice. i would like to know more about the fuel system changes you spoke about. did you mean that for electronic fuel management?

your correct. ther is no ecu controlling fuel. its all mechanical.
the setup im talking about is an extra njector controller. this is computer controlled setup that will control extra electrical injectors so you dont have to modify the stock jetronic system. you will weld injector bungs into your intake runners so you can mount the extra injectors. the extra injectors will only come on when the controller sees boost. you tune it yourself. the only issue i see is you will need to run fuel at the injector rail and it has to be at least 42 psi. another issue maybe the controller requires a tps signal for 3d mapping but you dont have to use a tps.

o, ok now i get it.

but it sounds a bit hectic.

i could probably tap the existing fuel line for the fuel, the bosch pump on my car is capable of 100psi but its limited to 36-48 by the fuel pressure regulator. so i could just change the fuel pressure regulator and go with the system you described. maybe later when i get the extra cash. thank you for the idea.

the logic that i am working on ryt now is that the bigger injectors will provide fuel at a rising rate as compared to the existing ijectors that provide fuel at a flat rate. the existing injectors lean out the mixture at high rpm on the N/A system. what do you think? will this method work? ie making the system add more fuel as the revs climb to co-incide with the increase in air.

it will add fuel exponentially which will work but you will not be able to control your afr so you maybe rich or lean at specific throttle percentages and rpm. fuel requirements are different all accros the rpm range. the only safe way is with computer control.

yeah i hear u mate, damn those dollars just keep climbing

w8, i just had a brain wave. What if i attached the vacuum advance hose thats connectd 2 the manifold to the intake pipe ie btwn the air filter and the turbo.that way it wil advance on boost and prevent detonation wen things go lean. It myt just work.i wonder if i cud keep the stock injectors and just enrich the mixture via the diz this way...

ok.scrap that.i was mis informed abt timing.timing in N/A is like the opposite of a car with boost. I now knw that i need 2 raise the static advance and keep it there.or make it retard under boost. Im learning so much every day.i hope somebody else can learn frm this too

ag to hell with this piece of crap k03. im just going to get the t3/t4 0.63. that way i can save gas on easy throttle and only get boost at WOT. the auto gearbox changes gear at 3000rpm on light to medium throttle. and around 5000- 6000 at WOT. i reckon my stock fuel system would be sufficient to supply the extra fuel if i use an external wastegate and limit the boost to 4 psi. at least i wont have to worry about excess heat and boost creep issues. that way i can live without the intercooler for now. i know this system can supply alot of fuel at high rpm. i just never get ther that often. only on the highways. ah well. there goes my idea of zipping around town in rocket powered mobile home.lol

i try to tell everyone there is no such thing as cheap boost.

you have it reversed. advance under boost = detonation, retard under boost prevents detonation. you do not need any timing adjustments for low boost. stock timing will be fine.

im running 10 psi on my gm 2.2 ecotec engine with no timing adjustment.

this is the way i went. im using a gt35 with a .83ar exhaust housing on my 2.2 ecotec engine. it doesnt spool till 4500 rpm so i can drive around town without boosting. the great thing about it is on the expensive fuel days; like now, i can put 87 octane instead of 93 octane fuel into the vehicle and not have to worry about damaging the engine. since i dont boost until 4500 rpm i can drive around town easily on 87 octane without boosting.

Your car does have electronic control of fuel. There is an electrohydraulic valve that controls the pressure to the mechnical injectors. A lambda adjsutment will not give you enough fuel for boost without severly overfueling when not on boost. Injector swap will not change that either, they only mist the fuel that has already been metered upstream.

yes,i just discovered the EHA valve. It is mechanically adjustable and can enrich the mixture as the revs climb.only problem is i wud get 14:1 at idle which is gud. But 2 get the required 8:1 for 4 psi boost.i wud be getting 11:1 at part throttle. Thats very rich. Am i correct in assuming that a NA Afr of 8:1 would result in a 12:1 afr under 4psi boost? Thanks evryone for your input

theres no way of knowing the exact afr. as fuel pressure rises output at the injector is tough to calculate. its not an easy formula. if you double the pressure to the injector it doesnt double the injector output.

i think you need to scrap the idea of messing with the jetronic system and just install an extra injector controller setup. it will be more reliable and your guaranteed fuel in the runner.

please tell me more about the 5th injector setup. Would the type that plugs into the charge pipe be suitable? And how would it b controlled? Vacuum or electronic? The system has a cold start injector installed that also enriches the mixture at WOT.would i b able 2 bridge the wires for the relay of the 5th injector off this? Does sumbody sell these 5th injector setups?

the controller i use can control up to 6 additional injectors. this is electronic controlled. the controller has a built in 2.5 bar map sensor that you run a vacuum line from the intake to the controller. its a 3 wire hook up. power, ground and tps signal. the controller only pulses the extra injectors when the controller built in map sensor reads boost. if there is no boost the controller is not adding fuel. im using 4 out of the 6 injectors the controller is capable of running. i have one injector in each intake runner. you can use one or two larger injectors in the boost pipe before the throttle body and it will work fine but there is always a chance that some cylinders will run richer or leaner than others since the fuel isnt being injected in the intake runner.
the controller requires a laptop to program. you program the controller based on rpm, boost pressure and tps angle. it takes time to do this. you want to start of will really rich tunes then gradually lean them out till your afr's are were you want them.

there is a cheaper version that doesnt require programming with a laptop. it mounts in your cab and you adjust injector pulse width with knobs on the face of the controller.

i think these will be your best bet.

that sounds very exciting and fun.

but expensive and sacreligious at the same time. i dont know why im so scared to cut up anything of the existing system. what about a suprcharger? tuning and fab work will be alot less than doing the turbo. and boost will be from 1000rpm. erm remind me again why people do turbos instead of superchargers? i know about the fact that the supercharger uses power to make power. but with all the problems turbos cause, isnt it better to just do an sc. i know of some sc that makes 20psi. does one really need more than that?

i got home 2 a nice surprise. My t3/t4 just arrived. I cant believe how fast they shipd. U cant beat the chinese in business. But im going 2 sell it. I found an eaton m45 for cheap frm a scrapyard. Came off a c180k. Im so super stoke :-) but i have 2 admit.that t3/t4 is begging 2 go on my benz.

using a supercharger with your jetronic will require some modifications. you will have to figure out how your going to route the supercharger without affecting the stock jetronic system. its more work to the intake side of the engine whereas the turbo would be more work on the exhaust side.

superchargers are great for off the line power as they are pulley driven there is no lag to worry about. they however make less power as you will loss 20-30% of the power due to actually turning the supercharger via crankshaft pulley. they also have a linear power band. as rpm goes up so does boost. you dont get full boost at lower rpm like a turbo. they are also limited especially the roots type blower you are looking to buy as there is no cooler. some come with coolers but they are still using engine coolant instead of ambient air to cool the fluid so heat soak is an issue.

turbo chargers can be more flexible to the owners need. there main disadvantage is lag. there are many variable displacement turbos out there that can alleviate this issue but there pricey. they cost a bit more to build. there are many advantages. make more power because there exhaust spun instead of crankshaft spun. upgradeable. allows for efficient intercooler cooling

ok.u are very convincing. And so is this huge ass t3/t4 next 2 my bed staring me in the face every time i wake up and go 2 bed. Tell me,how effective is an fmu? My car comes standard with a vacuum fuel pressure regulator.i have askd the guys on a mercedes forum wrt its limitations. And what sort of device could i use 2 measure afr? A wideband o2 sensor?

fmu's are effective but there not a tune. the exponentially raise the fuel pressure based on boost pressure. there is no fuel control with an fmu.
you will need a wideband afr gauge. all you need to do is weld an o2 sensor bung in the exhaust to accomidate the wideband o2 sensor and then mount the 2.25" gauge in your vehicle. i used an a-pillar gauge pod

ok.i wonder if my local hardware store keeps them. Do u know of a good source online?

i got mine at a killer deal on ebay. go with a quality sensor/gauge. i went with auotmeter.

ok gr8.i wil look 4 it.thank u so much 4 ur continuous support

anytime

i found an autometer o2 sensor on ebay for $107. does this come with the guage? or is it just the sensor? its supplied by a company called collisionparts or something