DSM vs. Honda
 

my buddy is going to be buying 1st gen talon TSI AWD turbo And he says that hes doing it because its more reliable (GTFO!) and it will be faster for cheaper then a honda. As far as my total build cost i would like it to be under $4k. I already have the turbo and wastegate so that takes some cost out of it.

So im gonna take some graduation money and get an 88 CRX with a ZC and show him he's wrong. but im gonna need some help from yall as to what i should do with my set-up. I know @ hte track im gonna have a hard time running him down or from a stop anywhere unless he breaks and i was thinking about doing a set-up like speed phreaks 3 stage set-up..... but from a roll im sure that the little honda could pull it off.

Im going to be putting a bigger turbo on my blazer (MP T70 w/ .85 a/r.) and take my t3/t04e 60trim off of (.63 a/r turbine). I was thinking about running an STD manifold. Not sure if im gonna need an adapter plate though.

Exhaust- 3.5" DP to a 3" full exhaust w/ lots of resonators and a flow through muffler. dont want the ususpecting 3v mustangs to know whats going on ;)

Would do a custom External set-up on it with an Extra 38mm W.G. i got laying around.

Tuning- AEM wideband, OXbox data logger, and crome PCM w/ 550cc injectors. (that is if crome can be used sorry if i spelled it wrong) and looking into a thicker HG to drop the compression


Things i need-
intercooler
tuning/injectors/HG
bov
SS piping
STD manifold
and car.

Im not sure what kinda power/boost a stock ZC can handle. so can someone tell me what that is? also does a GSR tranny bolt up to a ZC engine or should i just run a better clutch?. I know just enough about hondas to get by but i have always wanted to build one. sorry if some of this ---- doesnt make sence.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

you gona lose the faster for cheaper argument

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

GSR tranny won't bolt up

Stock clutch will most likely slip depending on your boost levels

How does that come to 4 grand? Sounds like about a grand.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

If you want to use a stock motor and you havent bought the crx yet, if you can find one with a stock B16 already swapped in I think it would better suit your goals... It wouldnt be much more expensive than buying a car with a ZC swap anyways. Stock for stock B16 can hold a lot more power than a ZC

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

no i would like to keep my budget around $4k if it costs less then hell ill go ahead and buy one with a b16 swap already in it. When they swap a b16 they usually swap a stock b16 tranny or a GSR tranny in there? How much do CRX's usually go for with a b16? $3k? I could still prolly throw it together for under $4200 or $4300 right? Also its worht more if i find one with a JDM b16 because they are a closed deck block correct?


he is gonna run the stock 14b or w/e turbo comes in the 1st gen talon's with 272cams @ 20psi is his plan with full turbo back, and intake.

i would like to get a 110 trap speed if @ all possible. I realize that will be very hard with a ZC on stock bottom end.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

I dont think any b16 has a closed deck design, unless you get it from dart.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

yea honestly.....if u already owned a crx with a swap i would say it's alot cheaper to slap some ---- together.....but since u don't even have one yet.....gonna be a lil more costly

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

DSM's blue book is crap compared to honda so that gives him an advantage no matter what you do... How about you guys ignore the price of the cars and just look at what you spend on goodies

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

Unless he doesn't take care of the car and get the factory recall done on the rear diff of his car, he is going to EAT you off the line, and most likely through 2-3 gear. But a 14b at 20psi is going to weez like my grandma with a whole pack of camel unfilltered in her throat hole. A stock zc on 8 psi is about as far as im taking it. I have a dohc zc that im going to see boost, but i also have it bored 20 over and have eagle rods for it. Total cost for bore and rods $250. t3/t4 Turbo soon enough at about 10 psi will make me happy. If you get the right size turbo and some drag radials, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to pull on him in the higher gears. He will be pushing that turbo way too hard.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

Still you gotta think if your pushing it hard just to be fast as him with a 14B. Wait till he tosses something bigger on it. If he drives it smart and doesn't beat the ---- out of it. Your gonna have a hard time being faster. Hate to break it to you...just little known tweaks to a 1g can have him hitting 13's all day and that's like stock ----. But then again if he just beats the ---- out of it...you walking will be faster then him cause he'll be dealing with fixing drivetrain ----. Its another reason why I didn't go with some crazy ass clutch for my VR4. I want the clutch to go out before I have to start replacing my drivetrain. A stage 1 Exedy clutch is all I went with.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

are you talking about the transfer case? if so, good luck still getting that honored, they don't even have to replace the case. 3bolt rear-ends in the 90-91s break moderately easily, depending on how aggressive the launching is. however, 4bolt rears in the 92+ are stout.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

I "lost" to a DSM today. haha

The old school Galant. 11.48 @ 127 mph..... He got kicked, but it was a happy kick.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

i think your friend is a moron for the more reliable than a honda comment. He'll def. make more power for cheaper but will run into problems a lot quicker. I REALLY wouldn't look at this whole thing as a what car can do what for X ammount of money, i'd look at it as, drive a car that you like, if you're faster than the other guy...you're the man in all circumstances.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

tell him that dsms = parts cars1

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

As soon as I saw the title of this thread I was like, "Oh ----, here we go again on this dead horse." Bottom line is that both cars have their pros and cons. The DSM can handle massive boost on stock internals and is AWD so it can put the power to the ground, but if you aren't handy with a wrench then you have no business owning a DSM. Honda is light and when boosted they are quick, but with WWD they are severely limited in street legal trim.

In my experience the reason DSM's get a bad rep is because they are cheap and end up in the hands of boy racers who mod before maintain. These are 13-17 year-old turbo cars (1st generation), and it's retarded to think without routine maintence they'll handle 20psi for 200k miles especially when driven hard like most are. The good thing about Hondas is that they're cheap.

Until around 300whp the DSM is cheaper, then they're even until 400whp or so and then when they're both fully built I'd say the Honda is cheaper and easier to build.

They're both fun cars though, and DSM's get a bad rap because of ricer tards buying them up. I just hate douche whistles that talk ---- about DSM's when they don't have one or have only had one or had their buddy own one. Now if you own one feel free to talk ---- about it because you've earned the right. Anyone who can succesfully maintain a 400+whp daily driven DSM deserves respect in the car game, as with a Honda.

The one true statement is that AWD>FWD, bottom line; and ---- yo couch if you try to argue otherwise.

In this particular case I'd put my $ on the DSM if they guy isn't a tard. The fact that he's tossing 272's in on a 14b and a mildly built car with weak engine management kind of says otherwise, but maybe there's something I don't know about. I'd say pull the actuator line off the 14b and let it free boost. It'll max out right around 22psi, so he better have at least 550's and some sort of tuning. Those cams aren't gonna do much for him with his car in that state and there are way better things he could do for the price of cams to make his car faster, even on a 14b.

People click off 12's on 14b's in full weight 1G's all the time. Even on stock injectors and clutch. It all dpends on how good he is and how good he has his car dialed in. Most noobish DSM owners will be hard pressed to eek high 13's out of their 14b powered cars. This is all bench racing anyway, so we'll see what happens. Bottom line is, 49.5cc Vespa>DSM+Honda combined. I'll race anyone on this site for pinks with my 4whp and 8ft/lbs.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

I have never owned a dsm, But i was seriously looking into buying one from a friend. I did Tons of hours of research on them and even went as far as helping him build his motor and put it in. I have replaced turbos and downpipes, changed axles and done the most extreme tune up i have ever seen on this dsm. Im not talking out my ass. The 14b is a good starter turbo, and i love the way you can still be riding the clutch and be in boost already, but it is too small for that amount of boost. If bench racing is your specialty the you would understand. Off the line the honda is going to get tore up, but if tuned right and built well it should win in the later gears/ half of the track.

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

i know this. my truck pulls 1.79 60ft. on a pegleg, nitto 555r's and some slapper bars. My friends sprayed (75shot) B20 Crx hatch on full slicks can only manage a 1.97 but his launch feels harder then mine. I have run many hondas in my truck and know how capable they are 3rd gear and up (when they got some power to them). thats why i was going that route. With my "bigger" turbo. AWD will always prevail from a dig (unless driver mod is not to be had).

Re: DSM vs. Honda
 

Ok, well I have a 97 gsx. My buddy has a crx with a turbo d16 in it. He is pushing 10-12 psi on a 60trim T3 and supporting fuel mods and I was running 16-17psi on the stock ecu with a bigger fuel pump and a small 16g. My car outweighs his by 1200+ lbs. Off the line I'll eat him up, but in the topend you can definately see that his car owns. With a slipping clutch at the drag trip I was pulling 1.90 60ft times and he was pulling 2.1-2.3. I definately had him off the launch, but he ended up running 13.6 @ 107mph and I ran 13.9 @ 102MPH running rich as hell (10.54 at WOT on the wideband).

My money is on the DSM if he knows how to take care of his car and knows how to race. But like previously stated, the cars are attention -----'s. If you don't take care of them, they'll leave you on the side of the road. The stock fuel system in the DSM is good for around 250whp. With the small 16g on my car and supporting mods, I should be able to pull out around 300-320 with the 16g. We'll find out soon enough. I am about to swap in my 650cc injectors and finish tuning my AEM >:D 24psi here I come.

If your buddy needs help to make his car faster tell him to come on the forums. This could be interesting O0