4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

I presently have a Silvertop 20V 4A-GE in an AW11 MR2. I have a Haltech E8 with MSD DIS-4 ignition. I have a GTP38 Turbo from a 6.0 Powerstroke. I'm planning on running a liquid to air intercooler setup. Aiming for 400HP. Planning on using a Quartermaster 2 disc 5.5" clutch. I hope to retain the use of the VVT system if possible.

Questions:

1) What size BOV should I use? I'm looking at a 40mm and a 50mm
2) Do you think this turbo would work on the 1.6 without surge?
3) Any cam suggestions? I was thinking 280 intake 305 exhaust, (Head is race ported)
4) Any other suggestions or comments?

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Any decent bov will work, I don't know much abou that turbo so i cannot comment. The vvt system should work fine, but those cams are somewhat ridiculous. Depending on lift you're going to most likely need underbuckets. Look on www.mr20c.com their are a couple 400whp 4ages on their. If I were you I would ditch this idea completly and do a 3sgte.

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all i know is the 4ag doenst like aggressive cams. it'll puke em right back at you in the form of metal internal parts.
you can go safely in the low 270's.

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and if 3sgte isnt baller enough for you do a beams 3sge+t

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Beams engines are a form of rice. ::)

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Look at this build maybe some ideas for your setup: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/L.../20-valve.html its in a ae86 but why not twincharge it yeah.
Uncontrollable wheel spins yeah!!!

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

$ for $ you will not get better hp gains and reliability. The 4age needs $$$ to make big boost, my gte makes 230whp and i did it all HMT getto fantastico. But to hit 300 nm 400 you're gonna have to spend way more and your reliability will ---- the bed. Besides ---- hp, get some torque its way more fun

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

What breaks on them at the 300+ level?

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check out this site this may help on modifying the 4ag 20v : http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm
and answer some of JD's questions about what breaks in these engines.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Advised the guy with the twin charged engine, his configuration all wacked. Its not a true Twincharged setup. True TwinCharged has no bypass valve, it compounds boost. I'm sticking with my 4AG and it already had underbucket shims, they come that way. I believe if my memory serves me correct, this is the closest compressor to the GTP38 garrett shows specs on http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...1_731413_1.htm They say up to 390HP. as far as the $$$, I do my work myself and have the skills and ability to make about anything I need.

And between the VGT and VVT, I should have all the wheelspin I need available. My goal is to set up a road speed to boost level map in the E8 so I wont be skatin all around on the streets when the boost comes on.

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The site you listed didnt come up.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

www.mr2oc.com
letter o instead of zero

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ZC lets clear up some things here.

1) either will be fine for your purposes.
2) It wont surge. Diesel rated hp ends up more with a gas engine most of the time.
3) 4A's use shim-on-bucket, and have a tendency to kick the shims loose at lifts greater than 9mm. I had a lengthy disscussion with a formula Atlantic engine builder about this issue. 1zz shim less buckets are the win.
4) Nope.

Ring lands on the cast pistons with improper ignition timing control ala d-series. Headgaskets have too low torque from the factory to be reliable. And the fact that all of them are ancient now.

GZE pistons and proper ignition timing control are the win. 4A's are a damn solid engine, but extremely underestimated.

So he can gain 75lbs engine and 50 transmission to have .4 liters more displacement and find hairline cracks in his crank on a bone stock engine, and still blow headgaskets? I dont think so.

5 crankshafts at my brothers shop, that were in stock engines, say thats a bad idea.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Thanks for the straight up answer. I was actually looking into using a custom 6mm titanium valve and increasing the Exh valves 1mm in head dia which would eliminate the shim though it requires each valve to be machined to tolerance, I think it would workout better. 5mm's would flow better, but I think with high boost and heat the 6mm will hold up better.

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LIES!!! All lies!!!! :'(

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I'm not that familiar with the 3sgtes, but out of all the high power 4ages I have yet to see one survive summer after summer at 300+whp. It's not so much that the motors suck, they are stout and make tons of power on stock blocks. I Just figure it would be cheaper in the end and more reliable to double the hp on a 3sgte than quadruple it on a 4agze. For those kind of power lvls a 4age needs everything replaced except the crank. I love my 4age, it made excellent power for the 500bux i spent but i want 300whp daily and reliable. I want to be able to beat at it and not worry bout knocking and oil pressure problems and having to arrange for tow trucks after lapping days. So this year im replacing my beloved gte with an sr20. Sadly, the sr20det is a gamble, but lets hope i don't end up with a ------ jdm garbage lemon. All I know is that injectors tune should get me almost to 300whp with the s14 motor. It will have more torque, better offboost response and the variable valve timing will help me make torque lower in the power band.

A 4agze i belive is a better base motor than a Dseries, just not as much cheap aftermarket. In an mr2 do you really want 400whp? You'll get nothing but hilarity and wheelspin. Will the tranny even put up with that ----?

Recipe for 400whp gte if i was to do it:
Holset hx35 should get you close
injectors unsure what size you would need up that power lvl, never looked into it
nice mani with external dump and "twin scroll" it so the damned thing spools
forged rods, pistons
os the bores
oem bearings
arp the ---- out of it
trd head gasket
Small port head will sacrifice top end but give you some decent off boost power and help spoo that big pig ass mf holset
water to air might not cut it for charge temps
gze 230mm clutch/pressure plate

edit: forgot about cams:

hks 272s with at least 8.3mm, oversized valves (sodium filled), new bronze guides , if u wanna go apeshit Teds makes some srs bzns cams that are ridiculous on boost, but they tend to spit shims sometimes and you also have to machine/dremel a bit of your head to make clearance for the giant lobes.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

3S is ZC, But I'm still sticking with the 4AGE. O-ringing the deck, working on making a main girdle that ties the oil pan rail and mains together, possibly going to a common plenum intake and scraping the ITB's, external oil pump, Quartermaster 2 disc 5.5" clutch, and further mods. Way I see it, ya do it right once and drive the piss out of it, and sometimes ---- still happens, thats just the name of the game. afterall go=dough.

My water to air IC will have some sort of additional cooling I've not yet configured. I'm thinking about making a second evaporator for the A/C so that when it gets hot outside, I can get some extra charge cooling.

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if your scrapping the 4age 20v Itbs let me know I might be interested in them.

Forthe extra could use some kind of CO2 or No2 system like what DEI designed called their cryo-system.

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Go 3TC and thank me later.

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yeah 3tc. you can romp on those all day.


check this website. orion does all the testing out for you.

www.whyturbothat.com

i dont think he got his power levels as high as youre aiming but he definately knows toyota engines inside and out.
theres two corolla projects on the site. one is boosted one is all motor. you should check both.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Price per dollar is what you must consider. Just the intial price for what it would cost to swap a 3S into an AW11 doing ALL the work yourself, you could build a bullet proof 4A and have a lot of $$$ left over. And then go to modding your not-new 3Sgte, which is going to break because they are all old now, and still not have a reliable 300hp daily because 3S rarely make those numbers without a standalone, etc etc.

You could build 2-3 fully forged 4A's for the price of one forged 3S.

The SC transmission has the same gearset (different casing) as the turbo mk2 Mr2 transmisson. Not to mention an AW11 is ALOT lighter than an sw20 by 500+lbs on average.

If FWD honda's can put 400+ to the ground, I think that a RWD aw11 with the motor/trans sitting on the drivewheels can do the same with proper suspension setup and tires.

Mixing around AFM's and fiddling with an AFC is not proper tuning on an engine that's sensitive to ignition timing to begin with. He clearly doesnt care if he blows them up. Fail.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

If you do it yourself it wont cost to much to drop in the 3s, but you are correct that they are getting old and at those hp levels you'll have to at least open the 3s to see how healthy it is. Guess it all comes down to what is easier, sure a 3s won t drop right in but when it comes down to it a gze and 3sgte arent that much more expensive than one another. Can you not make 400whp on stock mr2 rods and crank?

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

He already has a 20v silverhat. GZE pistons are all thats needed for the bottom end to handle the power he wants. He doesnt need to do a GZE swap.


Yes you can make 400whp on stock 3s rods and crank. You can also make 400whp on stock 4A rods and crank. Its really going to boil down to tuning.

The 3S swap is a bit more cash than I imagine you are led to believe. All the mounts have to be made, standalone wired up, SC/turbo hybrid axles, becomes more of a pain to work on, etc. Basically your digging yourself into a hole.

You never see reliable turbo 4A's because much like hondas were before crome/uberdata/ectune nobody tunes them properly, and piggybacks the stock failure ecu to compound the problem.

Stock toyota VAST system sucks the cock in the ignition timing department. The map based system is even worse. Stand alone or bust.

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why not convert the ecu to a honda ecu and use crome, ectune, neptune, etc. could save a lot on engine management.

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Def. a good option on the 20v since the dizzy is on the end of the cam already, and probably the OP's best course of action.

More difficult on a 16v aw11 because the dizzy is side mounted and there is no room to mount a honda dizzy on the end of a cam gear like the ae86. Not saying its not doable, just difficult.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

That has been done, but the guy who did it wouldnt let anyone know. Guess he had delusions of making a ton of money on the idea. The biggest problem is that hondas spin the opposit direction of the yotas, so you would have to get a dizzy gear/DLI gear that was cut and spun the other direction. I think you can machine the honda dizzy and yota dizzy to work. Great success has been had with megasquirt tho, im using ford edis and its been solid for years. I don't know if i would run 400whp on it tho. I understand that both blocks will take the abuse with proper tuning but I havent heard of anyone doing more than 1 pull on a stock piston'd 4age. The gze pistons are stout, and the silvertop bottom end is identical to the gze/redtop ect. But in no way should anyone be led to believe that GZE pistons will take 400hp worth of abuse daily. They might last a few dyno pulls but that is it. They are super strong for what they cost, ceramic coated and will fit when you flycut them but they wont take those kind of cylinder pressures. All it would take is a bad mix of heat, bad tank of gas, maybe an incline before they ---- the bed. Anythign is possible but caman ... Someone did some metallurgy tests on the GZE pistons and they turned out to not be forged iirc, something with the grain of the metal. I can't remember. Most people shooting for near 300 will change the pistons at least, and some leave the rods as well.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

there is a thread about 4ag with obd1 honda conversion https://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/...?topic=97764.0

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I'm running a Haltech E8, should have no problem tuning. Feeling the system out right now with the N/A motor. Soon to upgrade to my 4 bar map sensor so that I can tune my N/A points and be drivable when I add the turbo. Also I was thinking with the VGT turbo, running the vanes wide open at cruise, then let them close up about 30% throttle and up, it'll lag a little, but I think drivability will be much better, plus I'm not advertising too much cruisin down the highway when I dont feel like running someone.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Bill doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about. Destroking a NA engine that already has B16 geometry? Uhm, ------- fail dude. Displacement is king, sorry, and rod-stroke ratio is irrelevant on a small four cylinder where the pistons and rods weigh so little that side load is not a factor. There is a reason why 1.5 RS Hondas last 250K+ miles when taken care of.

Reading Bill is like reading Honduh interweb experts back in '97-98. A stock D16 can't handle more than 6 psi, a B-series can't do more than 10 psi.


The SW20 MR2's need about 450, minimum. On street tires you need less power or to feather the gas in first, but second gear lays all that down that down nicely. So far I've really only been through two MR2s at or about that power level; a stock head piston/rod 3S with 62-1, made 390 @ 19 psi, and a 5FE stroker with cams 425 whp. I haven't been able to go to the track with either of them to watch how they hook and offer input... but since we're launching FWD CRXs on dinky 24.5" slicks in the 425-ish range I see no reason why a heavier RWD MR2 wouldn't want more, just needs the suspension correctly set up for it. Yah, I know that kills some portion of the corner carving magic of an MR2, but they are magic in a straight line as well. SW20 is definitely a wierd ass chassis, mechanically and electrically, and the gearing "feels" all wrong, but they flat out work.

I've not been through any AW11, sadly, aside from putting a FWD (?) trans in one years ago. I've always had an affection for the 4A's, I had some friends who campaigned FX's in the auto-x back in HS.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Displacement is best, I wouldn't destroke any engine. Bore is the best gainer for displacement, mainly because you dont have to drag the rings any further. As far as rod ratios, In my experience, I lean toward short rods, especially when you have a quench area of the combustion chamber. It helps mix the fuel and air at TDC and get a better burn. A longer rod makes the piston slow further from TDC and therefore has less of a mixing effect. There is a tradeoff here too, as with a shorter rod, the piston, pin, rod, and crank are under more tensile stress at TDC at the end of the EXH stroke.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Spend some time over at www.mr20c.com, they really know their ---- and all the worlds fastests mk1s are their.

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No offense, but I'd rather learn the hard way.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

This thread fails.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

This whole post fails.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

More fail.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

Megasquirt= inadequate ignition/dwell control. Read my earlier post about how the 4A is sensitive to ignition timing changes.

Ok so the GZE pistons are not forged. That means exactly nothing in the realm of making power. 2JZ have cast pistons from the factory. Not forged. 4G63 have cast pistons. Not forged. See my point? Im not saying 4a pistons are just as strong, but No-one has ever TRIED to make that sort of power who had a clue what they were doing. If "nobody" youve heard of has achieved this then they are doing something wrong. Regardless, I was not incorrect in my statement that a fully built 4AGE IS cheaper to build than a 3S or any other motor you can cram into an AW11 engine bay.

I am not the least bit interested in what "people normally do to achieve X numbers" I want to know what broke on theirs and when.

Here in lies the problem with the "what people normally do" cache.
No offense OP, but I'd consider a form of engine management that didnt totally fail from the factory, and wasnt designed with spinning triangles in mind.

Yes the fastest MR2's are there. Of course they are, there are a total of 2 internet forums in existence that support the mass of MR2 knowledge. However, much like honda tech, It has been my experience that 90% of MR2 owners dont have a ------- clue what the hell is going on.

Ill bet money ive met face-to-face with the majority of high-end MR2 savaints in this hemisphere. They didnt get to where they are because they listened to people who say 'it cant be done'

Quoted for truth.

TTC, im not trying to start an arguement here, but the quote "that cant be done" is the motivating force in my life. Sorry if I come off as an ass on the interwebz. Im really a nice guy in person I promise. ;)

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Hey man, no offense takin here. If you can do it go for it I would love to see it, a few Aus guys have made ridiculous power without even cracking a used block apart. Even my car makes good power with used up old bearings, no machining, used pistons from a blown motor and a tijuana tune up. Im not going to argue tuning with a few guys that have much more experience than I. What I can bring to the table is my experience with these engines for the last 5 years.

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:)

We are here to learn from each other.

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I am still hollow and empty inside that I didn't bump into Hux at PRI. Talk about a badass ----------er.

Re: 4A-GTE Configuration Questions
 

He's actually kind of a quiet laid-back dude. You couldnt pick him out of a crowd. Cool as ---- though. He doesnt flaunt his success either, just enjoys the cars.