Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold cracked. **UPDATE NEW MANI PICS ADDED**
 

Well I have a customer that purchased a manifold back in August just send me this email.

Hey csaddict, I bought this manifold off you a couple of months ago and have been very happy with it, I dont know if you remember but i made a post in hmt thanking you for such a great looking manifold. Well I noticed the problem when I took out my motor yesterday to replace it with the dohc zc. I flipped my manifold on it and its got two identical cracks. One end of both the cracks ends or starts in the middle of a weld, The other side of the cracks stop in the middle of the metal piping. I had a 48/60 with a 2.5" downpipe with flex section hanging off the manifold. What should I do with it? Ive got the boost factory real close to me so I could have slappynuts tig it up for me if that will work. please help, thanks-- Aaron

He sent these pics along with it.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

I have made quite a few manifolds but this is a first. I have never had a cracking issue. Granted this is back when I first started to make them. My technique and welding has improved 10 times.I showed the pictures to another local welder in town and he was thinking it was do to an upward force. He says it would have cracked on the top and not the bottom. He thought the direction through the tubing was weird and that it was force or impact related. He asked if it was used as a lifting point while removing it from the car. I said I would ask Aaron. It seems odd that Aaron didn't notice any issues with the manifold prior to removing it from the car. I would assume that it would have been extremely loud and that the manifold would be covered in carbon. I am having the manifold returned to me and I am obviously making another one for him. I just wanted some educated opinions on the cause. It seems by the nature of the cracks that the upward force theory is correct.

I fully intend to make another one for Aaron and thats not why I'm posting. I just would like to hear some thoughts on the matter. I have contacted multiple customers that purchased manifolds around that same time and use them daily and everyone said its in great shape.

Thanks for helpful thoughts.
David

P.S. this manifold was made completely on a Miller Synco Wave 300. Not a chinese welder.


********UPDATE*******
Well I just got done with Aaron's new manifold. This is the last one of this style I am making. Too much of a pain in the ass. I would rather make Ram Horns. Anyway, here are the pics. Hope he likes it.

Here is the top view. I changed the angle of the flange so the turbo would be closer to the block and added an external wastegate flange at Aaron's request. Obviously free of charge.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

Here is my sad macro attemp to show that the welds are not undercut.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

Bottom view.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

New angle shot for Aaron.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...ZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

Thank you all for your input on the issue. I appreciate the insight and knowledge.

David

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

imho the engine has not been run with the manifold cracked, there would at least be a small amount of carbon buildup where it has cracked, would there not?

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Was there any flexipipe in the exhaust?

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

I would think that was caused by user install error, there would be carbon for sure and a definate noise

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

I have to agree that it was lifted by there. If it was run any at all it would be nasty as heck looking. Plus it would of sounded absolutely horrible while running.

Later
Randy

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Aaron said there was a flex in the exhaust. My Wife's future step father just left who does Fabrication work and he thinks there was a large impact of some sort. I have to email Aaron again and ask. I really dont care if he took the motor out of the car and it fell on the manifold. I would still make him a new one. I just can't see how it happened.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

This is why I dont use stainless steel.That is a full on expansion crack.Bring it to the welding class tomorrow and I will weld it up for you.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Well, I figured I would contanct you with this via email and let you decied if you wanted to post it up.
I was using this manifold while it was cracked, I did notice one small hairline crack which you can see from above but it didnt seam to be leaking because there was no carbon around it. I had planned to put my crx away for the winter a week or two after I saw the crack so i didnt look into it any further. Untill I finally got out to my grandparents farm which im storing my crx at and pulled the a6 and grabbed the manifold for closer inspection and pictures to show the cracks to CSaddict so he could decied what should be done.
I was using a flex section in my downpipe and I had a shotty weld on my downpipe about an inch or so down from the turbo which was leaking so I knew there was an exhaust leak there. I did wipe the manifold down with a rag, but there wasnt a lot of carbon leading to believe it was leaking a lot of exhaust. As for using it as a lifting point, Im going to school to be a auto tech, I know where is a safe lifting point. My grandpa has a full lift in his shop and a perfect engine hoist, there would be no reason for using any bizzare lifting point like the exhaust manifold. But I understand you would need to clear that up.

Since a new one is being made I have a few requests which I will IM you about.

Here is a shot of the shop I use and one of the setup, I was using poly mount too.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...82/build22.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...82/csmanny.JPG

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

It could have happend while in the car, and the wheight of the turbo/downpipe/wastegate kept the cracks closed, and when he took off the manifold the cracks were alowed to open.

Just a thought, but what material did you use to make that manifold?

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Schedule 10 SS. Slappy you seem to think this is an issue with all SS? Do the bigger dollar ones from the big name companies have issues after time too in your opinion? Think by going with a better grade of SS that it would help? Thanks for clearing it all up Aaron. Like I said from the begining anything you want done is fine. A design change, material change, it doesn't matter to me.

Thanks for the views on the subject guys.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

You need to put cuts between each exhaust port.That will help to relieve some of the stress of expansion and contraction.Thicker material in your case will just pull the exhaust manifold studs out of the head,and that would be bad.A longer runner disperses the expansion away from the head so the problems are not as bad.Thats why the big guys quit making log manifolds.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

I know why it cracked, I installed it. >:D

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

Steve, I know you had a hand in this!! I blame you!!! :P

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Looks to me like dave is distributing SS Autochrome Products as his own...

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Just had to throw that out there Dave, But on a serious note, the cracks themselves even look strange and the way they came out on the bottom of the manifold. My guess is that mother nature had alot to do with it, being that those crazy minnesota guys live in -500 degree weather. Your welds are pretty damn solid on everything ive seen

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

whatever it takes to make a quick buck >:D

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

that is really weird that it just cracked straight across like that. the upward force theory sounds most reasonable to crack it like that. it doesnt look like it the manifold was hot when it happened either, just looks like something pulled straight up on it while it was cold. csaddict sounds like you're a good businessman, keep it up

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

my opinion is the cracking is in the wrong location for it to have cracked, not to mention the cracks are lifted and the pattern of the crack indicates it was caused from a upward forceful motion.

theres also zero traces of carbon, as i zoomed in to about 800 percent on photoshop and saw nothing.

there is no way to not notice these cracks while driving, they are so large and ------ aprt your turbo would not even spool.

i say he jacked up the engine by the manifold ad broked it, and now hes fishing for a new one. :-X

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Josh, would you say the same about thing if it were trance? DoubleA is almost a twin personality of trance, and you know how that goes.

Make a new one, move on.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

yup, looks like he broke it on purpose, so he can park his car and wait for the same mani :l

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Your are a bonehead and I will have a demonstration as to what happend at the BF welding class in the morning.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

The cracks are all under the manifold, You can hardly see them from the top. Before I took the engine out three days ago I went for a couple rippers by the farm, 0-120 runs 10psi from 3 grand to redline bitch, no half throttle hotrex ----, no spool up problems.

Your a ------- idiot. Thank god I didnt buy a manifold from you. ::)

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

my guess is that in the car his motor mounts are shot allowing the turbo to rock forward and rest on/hit the front beam and stressing that area etc.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Come on by in the morning and I will do a demonstration of what happened.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

This is a good thing,because we can get a group for some impartial testing in the morning.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Poly motor mount inserts, you can see them in the engine bay pic.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

My laser guy is cutting a bunch of flanges for me for the big yahoo tomorrow.he is also going to cut a few peices of the same size material so we can weld the ends togher and heat them up with the torch.You will then be able to see what happens when your stainless steel manifold gets hot.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

I love torture tests. 8)

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

a lot of people sometimes forget to add a brace from the downpipe to the block, which results in massive stress to the manifold, having all the weight of the turbo ,downpipe,charge pipes and the whole exhaust system rocking back and forth on the manifold. every time you hit the gas/ change gears, the manifold gets impacted if there is no support from the downpipe to the block.

I don't know if this is the case here, but believe it or not, a lot of people dont think a support bracket between the downpipe and engine block is necessary.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

I don't think it's neccesary. Many don't use them, and if the stainless is the problem, than it shouldn't be used. A brace from the DP to the block will rock in the exact motion as a manifold/turbo/DP with no brace. You could probably take some of the weight off of it, but what exactly is the problem here? Is it the manifold, the material, or the weight?

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

stainless loves to crack like that, I have welded/replaced many factory headers/ exhaust at work for that. He didn't do anything wrong installing it or lifting the engine with it ::). As soon as the exhaust warmed up I bet these cracks sealed right up. stainless expands/contracts alot, if the mani design doesn't alow for it then cracks will appear. Look at factory jeep 4.0l headers :-X

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

when the engine rocks forward or backwards, the turbo/dp assembly are at the outside, meaning a good amount of torque, and the assy. wants to keep moving up or down and stresses the manifold.

i bet you're right about the expansion. if he let his car warm up for a minute, that manifold would be warm enough to seal the crack

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

trust me, im not the only one who thought that.

thats a unusually large and odd placed set of cracks.

i woulda replaced it too. just seems initially fishy, na meen?

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

When you pulled the motor did you wrap the chain around the manifold? If you did, the manifold could of just been barely cracked, but the weight from the stress on the chain would of cracked the hairline cracks bigger. -Nick

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

im not making ----, wasnt my mani.

this is hmt steve, the land of people doing stupid ---- on a regular basis.

so you need to rule out all possibility. i dont know aaron from ----, and judging by some of the ---- we see on here, id bet more than one person has tried to remove their engine from the car using their manifold as a jack point,.

im not hating, just was a bit skeptical. but thats aside now.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Csaddict asked me if there was any funny buisness that went on with the manifold, I replied.


Than after explaining myself you proceed to call me out as an idiot and a thief. :3 From here on out your comments about me or my ethics can be kept to yourself and out of my threads. thanks.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

sure thing jesus.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

im guessing it has to do with the way that the pipes are layed out, kinda perpindicular to eachother (#3 going into #4 perpindicular). i could see that causing the pipes to seperate there.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

I have no experiences with welding stainless, but I have a lot of experiences with them cracking, on military vehicles that uses them as downpipes, my personal project with obx, and ss auto, people on the forums etc. thats why I decide I am gonna stick with my cast iron blox manifold, so if it ever crack its covered under the lifetime warranty.

Re: Need opinions on problem. Had a manifold crack but really strange.
 

Ok, I'm too lazy to read all the posts.. but explain to me how the ---- there is no carbon buildup around those cracks..