First attempt at collector *update 8 OMGgaslense ftl?? 56k no
07-01-2007, 06:46 AM
#31
1.0 BAR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 397
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
in regards to the dimple...
it is caused by you not being able to ease off the amps when coming to the end of your bead.. well try to angle your torch head away quickly then pull away. it should help some.
what are your speeds in those plate welds? how long does it take to complete?
try some fillet welds.
it is caused by you not being able to ease off the amps when coming to the end of your bead.. well try to angle your torch head away quickly then pull away. it should help some.
what are your speeds in those plate welds? how long does it take to complete?
try some fillet welds.
07-03-2007, 02:22 AM
#32
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
When you get to the end of the weld take the filler rod & give it one last slightly hair larger than normal dab to fill the crater, while at the same time taking a backstep with the electrode & close it down as close as you're comfortable to drop the heat input & then pull it away quickly to break the arc.
The other way is to drag the welder in arm's reach. Dap the filer rod the last time & very quickly toss the filler in a safe place & reach over & back the amp control down by hand. This will contaiminate the end of the filler, but you can cut that off. No big deal.
AFA how the welds look. They're all over the place.
You're getting over-lap from:
You're getting lots of porosity. I bet your electrode isn't staying in the shielding gas. Either while you're welding, or afterwards. The rod needs to stay in the shielding gas. Don't let it get outside the cup. Hell don't let it get that far away from the puddle. Man bend your head down there so you can see what you're doing. There's plenty of room for it I promise lol!
If the electrode is contaminated. Clip the bitch off. Don't use it again.
The cleaning, enough has been said about that. You're probably using the common -2 filler which is OK for light rust, but ANY mill-scale that is present on the workpieces will almost always instantly cause under-cut that you'll never be able to fix. (cleaning the mill-scale will fix the rust also.) You're getting some porisity in some of the welds too. I would guess from rust, millscale, contaminated electrode & filler.
Are you using a pattern (C pattern, circle, step back etc etc) on your electrode hand? Everyone is different, but for the dipping that you're doing you want to hold the torch at a constant distance from the workpiece with NO osccilation from side to side. Run the torch straight down the joint root. You're not walking the cup (yet), no reason to confuse youself.
See where the rust & cuts are on the left half of this merge? A good goal is to be able to run a consistant bead from the single merge pipe out to about the point of that rust & cuts. Then you can flip it over & do the same thing on the other side. Then reposition youself to do the remaining sections.
See you're starting out pretty fine. The weld bead is about the right size. Great! After that first inch you've got heat built into the material. The beads are too big & YOU NEED TO PICK UP THE TRAVEL SPEED! By the time you're at inch two, you REALLY need to be watching the weld puddle. The material is now becomming a diferent thicknesses because the piping is rolling over. At the toes of the weld it's still a 16gauge. However betwee the toes & the root it has become slightly thicker because of the angling of the pipe. (Just like sloping armor on a battle tank...)
The change is minute, but it is important.
It is so important that you watch the puddle & understand what you're looking at in real time... Undercut = heat input & incorrect electrode angle / position. If your metal is clean that's all there is too it... It's real easy to tell if your torch is off. The electrode should be pointing at the joint root & equal from your sides. Slight push angle (10-20*). If that's fine guess what. You've got too much heat in the material.
Drop the heat by cutting it down and/or moving faster...
Look. Cut your heat back more than you have right now. Since you're doing it virtually without heat control. Cut it down enough where you have to work that torch 3-4 seconds jsut to get a good puddle size. THEN start traveling down the pipe. That would atleast give you a fighting shot at staying comfortable as you speed up. (just don't doddle around & let it get too hot. push that puddle man.)
You just need practice. And seriously you can't TIG nasty material. It needs to be as clean as you can get it. NOT "relatively as clean as you can get it in 20 seconds"... It is almost unbelieveable how undercut is sensative to mill-scale & dirty base metals. As soon as you've run a bead long enough to build up some heat in it, you'll get the undercut.
The fitment looks good. Not much too it (basic math & a jig that doesn't move LoL!), but it looks nice! You're prolly 25% of the way to get to where it's a nice consistant useable bead.
Don't bevel your 16ga. Multi-passing anything even remotely that thin is just wasting timing & consumeables. You oughta be able to single pass 1/12 - 1/8" pipe depending on how hot your TIG will run without effort.
I ditto turbod16. Cut you some 4" coupons & start cranking out some fillet welds. (flat and horizontal) It'll help you alot faster. See you're getting minor variations in both your electrode and filler, angles & positioning. Which isn't so bad on the first inch of a merge collector, but afterwards the piping is changing faster than your ability to control the torches. (not adding in that you need to start picking the pace up to cut the heat input down a hair)
It's just practice...
The other way is to drag the welder in arm's reach. Dap the filer rod the last time & very quickly toss the filler in a safe place & reach over & back the amp control down by hand. This will contaiminate the end of the filler, but you can cut that off. No big deal.
AFA how the welds look. They're all over the place.
You're getting over-lap from:
- adding too much filler which cools the weld down
incorrect electrode angle
incorrect filler rod angle
- too much heat input
too much heat build-up
incorrect electrode angle
incorrect electrode position (too much on one side of the joint root, i.e. you're not staying cenetered up)
You're getting lots of porosity. I bet your electrode isn't staying in the shielding gas. Either while you're welding, or afterwards. The rod needs to stay in the shielding gas. Don't let it get outside the cup. Hell don't let it get that far away from the puddle. Man bend your head down there so you can see what you're doing. There's plenty of room for it I promise lol!
If the electrode is contaminated. Clip the bitch off. Don't use it again.
The cleaning, enough has been said about that. You're probably using the common -2 filler which is OK for light rust, but ANY mill-scale that is present on the workpieces will almost always instantly cause under-cut that you'll never be able to fix. (cleaning the mill-scale will fix the rust also.) You're getting some porisity in some of the welds too. I would guess from rust, millscale, contaminated electrode & filler.
Are you using a pattern (C pattern, circle, step back etc etc) on your electrode hand? Everyone is different, but for the dipping that you're doing you want to hold the torch at a constant distance from the workpiece with NO osccilation from side to side. Run the torch straight down the joint root. You're not walking the cup (yet), no reason to confuse youself.
See where the rust & cuts are on the left half of this merge? A good goal is to be able to run a consistant bead from the single merge pipe out to about the point of that rust & cuts. Then you can flip it over & do the same thing on the other side. Then reposition youself to do the remaining sections.
See you're starting out pretty fine. The weld bead is about the right size. Great! After that first inch you've got heat built into the material. The beads are too big & YOU NEED TO PICK UP THE TRAVEL SPEED! By the time you're at inch two, you REALLY need to be watching the weld puddle. The material is now becomming a diferent thicknesses because the piping is rolling over. At the toes of the weld it's still a 16gauge. However betwee the toes & the root it has become slightly thicker because of the angling of the pipe. (Just like sloping armor on a battle tank...)
The change is minute, but it is important.
It is so important that you watch the puddle & understand what you're looking at in real time... Undercut = heat input & incorrect electrode angle / position. If your metal is clean that's all there is too it... It's real easy to tell if your torch is off. The electrode should be pointing at the joint root & equal from your sides. Slight push angle (10-20*). If that's fine guess what. You've got too much heat in the material.
Drop the heat by cutting it down and/or moving faster...
Look. Cut your heat back more than you have right now. Since you're doing it virtually without heat control. Cut it down enough where you have to work that torch 3-4 seconds jsut to get a good puddle size. THEN start traveling down the pipe. That would atleast give you a fighting shot at staying comfortable as you speed up. (just don't doddle around & let it get too hot. push that puddle man.)
You just need practice. And seriously you can't TIG nasty material. It needs to be as clean as you can get it. NOT "relatively as clean as you can get it in 20 seconds"... It is almost unbelieveable how undercut is sensative to mill-scale & dirty base metals. As soon as you've run a bead long enough to build up some heat in it, you'll get the undercut.
The fitment looks good. Not much too it (basic math & a jig that doesn't move LoL!), but it looks nice! You're prolly 25% of the way to get to where it's a nice consistant useable bead.
Don't bevel your 16ga. Multi-passing anything even remotely that thin is just wasting timing & consumeables. You oughta be able to single pass 1/12 - 1/8" pipe depending on how hot your TIG will run without effort.
I ditto turbod16. Cut you some 4" coupons & start cranking out some fillet welds. (flat and horizontal) It'll help you alot faster. See you're getting minor variations in both your electrode and filler, angles & positioning. Which isn't so bad on the first inch of a merge collector, but afterwards the piping is changing faster than your ability to control the torches. (not adding in that you need to start picking the pace up to cut the heat input down a hair)
It's just practice...
07-03-2007, 02:26 AM
#33
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
Oh, and you're practicing now, so what you're doing is fine.
But when it comes time to make a real merge, you need to leave yourself another inch or two longer pipes. Otherwise it's almost impossible to weld the merge pipes to the pipes they're merging!
But when it comes time to make a real merge, you need to leave yourself another inch or two longer pipes. Otherwise it's almost impossible to weld the merge pipes to the pipes they're merging!
07-05-2007, 07:31 PM
#34
1.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 714
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
hello everyone! im still on vacation but i thought i'd check some threads and read my mail 
just first off want to say "wow everyone thanks for your replies!!" i'll try to answer or reply to some of them:
its a 6lb welder so i love it
ultra portable. and thats a 60cuft tank.
thanks everyone for comments and suggestions on the dimples.
i will look into adding a pedal. i didn't know if it was possible, but when i get a chance i will do some searching on building my own foot pedal setup. i imagine that will help out with heat control towards the end.
and lastly, Toysrme - i bow down to you sir. i really do. that post was insanely informative, sincere, helpful, and all around full of support encouragement and suggestions. i thank you for taking the time to write it all up. i will reread it a few times and try out all that was suggested. im fairly good at critiquing my own welds. despite of that im not quite able to instantly make the changes that i know i need to (like changing pace and controlling torch angle). so even tho i see it, i need more practice to do it. easier said than done tho right? so yes, i compltely agree with your critiques and many of it i was already telling myself. just gotta keep practicing to make it happen. and ontop of that you included a lot of helpful things i didn't know. for instance turning down the heat low enough where it takes 3-4 seconds to build a puddle. running this heat will allow me to manageably pick up speed further along on the weld. but things like this i didn't know, i had no clue how long it should take to build a puddle, i assumed maybe 1.5 seconds? which is why i would turn up the heat. if i remember correctly the welder was on and off around 50 amps. i adjusted a few times while working on this peice to see how it felt but most of it was around about 51amps. i'd have to double check when im home.
allright everyone thanks again for your comments! i really appreciate it. its back to vacation for me!
see you all later
-Luke
just first off want to say "wow everyone thanks for your replies!!" i'll try to answer or reply to some of them:its a 6lb welder so i love it
ultra portable. and thats a 60cuft tank.thanks everyone for comments and suggestions on the dimples.
i will look into adding a pedal. i didn't know if it was possible, but when i get a chance i will do some searching on building my own foot pedal setup. i imagine that will help out with heat control towards the end.
and lastly, Toysrme - i bow down to you sir. i really do. that post was insanely informative, sincere, helpful, and all around full of support encouragement and suggestions. i thank you for taking the time to write it all up. i will reread it a few times and try out all that was suggested. im fairly good at critiquing my own welds. despite of that im not quite able to instantly make the changes that i know i need to (like changing pace and controlling torch angle). so even tho i see it, i need more practice to do it. easier said than done tho right? so yes, i compltely agree with your critiques and many of it i was already telling myself. just gotta keep practicing to make it happen. and ontop of that you included a lot of helpful things i didn't know. for instance turning down the heat low enough where it takes 3-4 seconds to build a puddle. running this heat will allow me to manageably pick up speed further along on the weld. but things like this i didn't know, i had no clue how long it should take to build a puddle, i assumed maybe 1.5 seconds? which is why i would turn up the heat. if i remember correctly the welder was on and off around 50 amps. i adjusted a few times while working on this peice to see how it felt but most of it was around about 51amps. i'd have to double check when im home.
allright everyone thanks again for your comments! i really appreciate it. its back to vacation for me!
see you all later
-Luke
07-13-2007, 08:53 AM
#35
1.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 714
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
i've been really busy but im hoping this weekend to give another go at a second practice one. next practice one will be mild steel again. the actual collector will be out of stainless. if i don't get a backpurge line setup for the stainless am i going to really regret it?
-Luke
-Luke
07-18-2007, 08:47 PM
#38
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
LoL no I'm not by any means.
I'm just in school for it, already done alot of inspection / wire welding classes last semister & doing tig + blueprinting this semister. Plus I gotta part time job were I wire / flux weld. So I'm not good, I think it's just my "experiance level" is growing at a highly accellerated state lol. I basically spend 6-10 hours a day welding nearly continously and ontop of that have theory classes.
Plus after some heavy duty inspection classes, and looking at what welds are good / bad & your own mistakes. Most of the basic things become highly acedemic / easy to spot & correct.
I'm sure Engloid would rape what I had to say hahaha
I'm just in school for it, already done alot of inspection / wire welding classes last semister & doing tig + blueprinting this semister. Plus I gotta part time job were I wire / flux weld. So I'm not good, I think it's just my "experiance level" is growing at a highly accellerated state lol. I basically spend 6-10 hours a day welding nearly continously and ontop of that have theory classes.
Plus after some heavy duty inspection classes, and looking at what welds are good / bad & your own mistakes. Most of the basic things become highly acedemic / easy to spot & correct.
I'm sure Engloid would rape what I had to say hahaha
07-18-2007, 08:55 PM
#39
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 0
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
I am partial to the C pattern. I found as a beginner to leave the filler in the puddle and work a Z pattern. Engloid told someone that a long time ago and I tried it with success.
07-18-2007, 09:53 PM
#40
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: First attempt at collector - help please *update
ditto. E is the f'ing man.
99% of the time I do a C unless i get instructions to do something else, or it's just some oddball thing that doesn't feel right. but if I'm going to be dipping the rod, F it. straight travel, correct bead size & location. no reason to get complicated. hehehe
99% of the time I do a C unless i get instructions to do something else, or it's just some oddball thing that doesn't feel right. but if I'm going to be dipping the rod, F it. straight travel, correct bead size & location. no reason to get complicated. hehehe
