230 single phase
 

ok i know this has been covered somwhere but i cant find it so help me out. we got a new 230 welder but my dumb ass didnt realize that its not the same as the plugs we have in the shop for the compressor, etc....anyone have info on this? is it as simple as a new plug or is there some major re-wiring that needs to be done. i think the plug on there is the "dryer" plug type

Re: 230 single phase
 

Just get the same plug as your shop as long as its 230 single phase and make sure you check the breaker its on. The plug configuration is an indicator of the amp draw in most cases.

Re: 230 single phase
 

220 is 220 is 220 in the US. 110v = a hot, a neutral & a ground.
220v = a 110v hot, another 110v hot & a ground.

All you gotta do is put a new plug on it. Just make sure it's rated for the correct amperage! :)



If you wanna blow $40, and you are completely unable to remove the welder's plug. (Which would be stupid!) You could buy the male plug to fit your current female (outlet). Wire it to a female plug meant for your current welder's plug. There's your quite expencive plug adapter.

Re: 230 single phase
 

hmm well i just checked the box and those outlets have like a double-breaker on them with each one labeled 20...so does that mean that those are 40 amp...or just 20? Either way the other ---- that was plugged into them was labeled 220v or 230v single phase. The welder says it needs 21.7 amps to run at its rated output, would it still be fine running on 20 if i dont push it to its limits? sorry im an electrical noooob.

Re: 230 single phase
 

It's 20 amps.
Aslong as the wiring & outlets are also wired to handle atleast a 20amp load. You'll be OK.
Modern inverter welders ramp their current draw up in a way that you can normally exceed the amount a breaker, or a slow blow fuse is rated for. Older transformer welders. It can be abig crap shoot. You'll blow a working 20amp breaker drawing 25amps through it, where you may draw 27amps just fine on a better high end inverter tig machine on the same breaker.


Just hook your ground up & then hook the hots where ever. Then run the thing. If the walls catch on fire, or the outlet melts... The wiring & outlets are not wired to code. If the breaker trips, reset it & cut the current down a smidge. You'll be just fine!

Re: 230 single phase
 

Honestly why the ---- do they make about 15 differnent ------- 220v plugs? Wiring 220v welders can be a bitch when the plugs don't match but the 220v is definatly worth having.

Re: 230 single phase
 

LoL! Who knows. Make sure you always have the gold plug ones instead of the aluminum ones tho. They're 15amp.
Best I can tell you, is some plugs must be a locking 3 prong, or locking 4 prong type.

Then you have different types of plugs for the common amperage ratings. 15 20 30 & 40amps are all different plugs.




Unlike 110 they do have to be different because hey want to be very sure that you can't put a 220v plug in a 110v outlet!
And like, 15 & 20 amp plugs have a (how do I temr it?) vertical prong & a horizontal prong. While 10 amp 110v's have a pair of vetical prongs.


It's just saftey stuff.

Re: 230 single phase
 

i think im gonna make up an adapter since id like to keep this thing under warranty for a bit (millermatic 180)

Re: 230 single phase
 

OK, but for the cost of the phonecall. Why don't you call the seller & ask if re-plugging the unit will affect the warranty.

Re: 230 single phase
 

From Miller's site:
Input Power

* Requires 1-Phase Power
* 230 V, 21.7 A, 60 Hz

20A will be fine, just dont crank it all the way up. Check and make sure that your 20A breaker is using the correct Romex wire, should be 14/3. You DON'T need 4-wire for 20A 240v, unless things have changed recently.

Build a converter cable, and I'd use a 6L-20P/6L20R for the cable end, and for the receptacle. Those are locking (twist-lok) connectors, so it'll be hard to pull the cable out of the wall.

Re: 230 single phase
 

WHOOOAAAAA DUDDDDE...please do not give electrical info out anymore...you're going to end up with someone burning their house down :X

220v is usually considered single phase for residential use, meaning 2 hot legs rated at 110v and one ground. In the US power is distributed to your house via 220v this way from your utility pole. Once it hits your meter base, it creates a neutral either through the panel, or via a disconnect if your house panel is a certain distance from the point of entry according to the NEC rules. Your panel is split into 2 sides, or legs, with each leg rated at 110v. When combined with a 2 pole breaker, you now have a single phase, 220v circuit. Single phase refers to the way the ac wave performs...a single line that oscillates at 60hz, positive voltage and then negative voltage of the same value (although technicly all electricity is considered negative in its flow, positive is more widely used as a base value). Now having given you a background in electricty, let's move on to your application.
According to NEC codebook for 2007, the amperage load placed on any breaker cannot exceed 75% of the breaker's rating. Therefore, if the the welder requires roughly 22 amps to perform it's task, then you would need a breaker rated at 30amps. To achieve 220v status, it means you would need a 2 pole breaker, 30 amp rating. Minimum wire size for 30 amp breakers is a #10 wire for copper, #8 for aluminum. So that being said, a #10/3 wire is minimum requirement for your application...2 hot legs @ 110v (black and red wires), 1 neutral leg (white wire), and 1 ground (bare copper wire). The plug you need will more than likely be for a dryer application setup for both a neutral and ground.
Sometimes it pays to have over 10 years in the electrical and electronics industry, although after this week I hang my electrician's belt up for good to work as an electronics technician for the government full time. ;) Ask me any questions you might have if I confused you ;D

Re: 230 single phase
 

Oh, and the kid was wrong...2 20 amp breakers ganged together equals 40 amps total. Just thought I'd toss that in there ;)One other thing I forgot...#14 wire is used on 15 amp single pole breakers only, all 20 amp single and 2 pole require a minimum of #12 wire. The only thing you were close on was the "don't need 4-wire for 20a 220v"...only if it's used for electric baseboard heat. Otherwise they all have to have both a neutral and a ground as per safety regulations in NEC.

Re: 230 single phase
 

so basically ill be fine

Re: 230 single phase
 

You got it. Inverters pull power slowly enough as not to trip most breakers, or slow-blow fusing.
I've seen posts of guys with the newer machines are pulling 27-28amps on 20amp circuits without tripping the circuits.
But yes, 20amps is fine for you.

When wiring in 220v:
When the 110v lines have 20amp breakers, it's still a 20 amp 220v circuit, not a 40amp circuit.

Re: 230 single phase
 

Incorrect...the total amperage of the breakers are added together when used in a 2-pole setup. The reason the say "20amp" on each one is because the "total" of the 2-pole setup is 20 amps, so as not to confuse the common homeowner. I can take 2 seperate single pole 20 amp breakers, use them in a 2 pole setup, and get a 40 amp setup...due to the fact that the amperage draw is split 50/50 between both breakers. Ever hook up a 440/460 amp single phase? Same principle, although a very uncommon application. 330/340 and 277 tri-phase are more industrial standards anyway.

Re: 230 single phase
 

It's 20 amps.

If you tried to pull a 35amp load on that it'd trip like a mother fucker.

Re: 230 single phase
 

I'm not saying to pull 35 amps on a 20 amp breaker, 2 pole or single...that's just retarded. I'm saying pull 35amps on a 40 amp 2-pole breaker, seeing that amperage draws that high are confined to 220v use only.

Re: 230 single phase
 

No ---- shirlock.n You can't pull a 40 amp load on a single phase 220v powered by 20amp breakers.

If you can pull a 40 amp load, it's a 40 amp circuit. So don't tell people that don't have the best idea about what they're reading "it's a 40amp circuit" and have them think they can go plug a 40amp device in it. You're all bitchy to the other guy about blowing someone's house wiring up. Why don't you take a step back from that one & see you're just as bad.






ghettoturbo - I am no an electrictian, but I did install a sub-panel, 3 20amp 220v & 2 30amp 220v outlets. And an inlet from my Honda generator so I can power any 2 circuit breakers in my house. I do have a woodshop in the basement that sees semi-regular use of multiple 20 & 30amp machines at one time.

Trust me... You are perfectly fine drawing 22amps through that 20amp breaker. Your wiring, and outlets are not going to melt. And it's a god damned 20amp circuit. Somebody call him a ------ if he says 40amps one more time.

Re: 230 single phase
 

You have been the closest out of these guys, at least you have a good working knowledge of electrical. Here's the problem though...you guys are going by what's available readily at your local homie depot and such. You walk in, look for one that says 40 amps, and think you're done. Pop that tab off that connects the 2 breakers together and what do you have? 2 20 amp breakers. ::)Sorry, but a 22amp draw through a 20 amp breaker will pop as well, not to mention heat the wire up which also risks burning down the house. I already gave you the NEC rule for amperage sizing...22amp draw requires a 30 amp curcuit. Plain and simple. I already told you, I've got 10 years in this business...I started an apprentiship when I was 16 still in highschool and have been doing it almost every day from then until now, and I'm 27. Please enlighten me on your many many years as an electrician so that I may belittle you some more. ::)

Re: 230 single phase
 

ok i made the adapter cord and it seems to work fine, i love this welder

Re: 230 single phase
 

If they are marked 20 on each. Its a 20 amp breaker.

Re: 230 single phase
 

yea thats what the guy said at home depot...i figure as long as i dont push the welder to its limits ill be fine or it will pop the breaker which is no biggie

Re: 230 single phase
 

im an electrical contractor here in az i have all the ---- laying arronud ill give you if you can get me a pic of your set up your gonna need a pice if 10/3 a twin 30 amp breaker and a 30 amp receptical when doing the calculations your breaker size is supposed to be 125% of your max load capacity cal it 22 amps divided by 4 is about 5 so your total ams needed to run your welder is 27 amps so grand total is a 30 amp dedicated circuit to run your welder to its full potential with out poping your breaker right in the middle of your job lmk if you want that ---- all you will have to pay is shipping for the wire breker box and recep

Re: 230 single phase
 

Thank you bigmike :) We always went by the 75% calculation, but I like that 125% rule too...gives you a little extra to play with.

Re: 230 single phase
 

Jesus Christ, everybody is an electrician. ::) I can go through and disagree with at least one thing everybody said, but who the ---- am I? ::)

My horseshit input:

A 20 amp 2 pole breaker is just that, a 20amp 2 pole breaker. Yes, you can pull ~20amps through each of them without tripping the breaker to total ~40amps, but it's still a 20amp breaker and NOT a 40amp. A 40amp 2 pole breaker is NOT 2 20amp breakers tied together. :1 If it were, wouldn't that make it the same exact rating as a 2 pole 20amp breaker under that idea?

I don't know ---- about welders, but 99.9% of the welders I wire for are ~40amp welders using a 3wire(2 hots, neutral, and a ground) 8ga. wire and usually uses a range plug, Leviton part#279.
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Re: 230 single phase
 

if u can disagree with one thing that i said i think ill have to call you on your bullshit this is what i do day in and day out everyday of my life since i was 13 years old

Re: 230 single phase
 

Ok, I'll tell you where you're wrong, and I bet you will even agree with me. :4


A 30amp "twin" breaker is going to give him 2 120v hots, but from the same phase, which won't give him 220v total. A 30a "2-pole" breaker will give him what he needs.
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Re: 230 single phase
 

twin and two pole are the same thing but yes ill agree i should have said 30 amp two pole

Re: 230 single phase
 

Negative. A "twin" is a breaker that feeds 2 circuits from the same phase. A "2-pole" is a breaker that feeds 1 or 2 circuits from seperate phases. :P
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Re: 230 single phase
 

There are a few different names for them...twin is one that I've heard before. Boost is talkin' about the single sized breakers that are divided into 2 with the little trip levers, but still take up the same space as a single.
I'm pretty much officially retired as an electrician now...I'd be happy as ---- if I never have to do any of this ever again...government sat/com ftw!

Re: 230 single phase
 

the only problem with that is that they do not make a twin 30 amp breaker and there called mini's

Re: 230 single phase
 

I know...most I can find around here is 20a mini's, and only because I have a half-dozen stacked in my basement. Hell, even the Homie-Depot by me is getting scarce on the square D mini 15a's. Besides, as far as most circuits/appliances that require a 30a breaker, they're usually a 220v anyway.
You ever hear the trick to tell whether a Square-D breaker is good or burned out? Set the breaker to the "On" position, and then smack it against the palm of your hand. A good Square-D will trip on impact, a burned out one won't. Trick works on both the standard Square-D and the Homeline version. ;) Don't bother trying it on other brands though...I've tried Cutler/Hammer, Federal Pacifics, GE's, Westinghouse's, most every major brand out there and it doesn't work...Square-D only :P

Re: 230 single phase
 

right on ill have to remember that thaks

Re: 230 single phase
 

No problem...comes in handy when diggin' through a crate of breakers and not knowing which ones are good or not. ^-^

Re: 230 single phase
 

nice, i couldnt ever find a halfway decent job as an electronic tech ever. Nobody around here even offers the courses for it anyway.

Re: 230 single phase
 

I took a college course for it when I was finishing up HS, ended up with an associates degree in electronic's technology that was pretty much useless at the time...nobody wanted to hire me, especially when I was only 18. :P I didn't do anything with it until about 2 years ago, and I stuck my resume in for a government job at the Tobyhanna Army Depot by me. 2 years later, I got a phone call...now I work on Sat/Com systems for the military :)

Re: 230 single phase
 

:S


:P

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Re: 230 single phase
 

----. My electrician is wrong. Thats how my house is wired, and he said its up to code. My machine pulls 18A, I'm running it on a 20A breaker, and 14-3 wire. My sincere apologies, now I'm gonna have to find another person to check my setup. Consider me schooled. :1

Re: 230 single phase
 

Just because it works does not mean its correct. Im a union electrian I work at honda in troy ohio. ---- ton of welders all you will need is a 10-2 romex or Mc depending on the shops specs. A welder does not need a nuetral. inside the welder it goes straigt to a transformer(only one voltage is needed on the high side/ no need for a nuetral) which has several taps to get the different amperages/heat ranges. You will need a 2pole 30 amp breaker and a 30 amp 240 3 wire plug should look like -.-
AWG AMPS
14 15
12 20
10 30
8 40

Re: 230 single phase
 

Commercial equipment might not need the neutral, but as far as residential is concerned the neutral is mandatory now. More of a safety thing I guess, even if the welder doesn't technicly require it.