16 gauge manifold pics
 

I'm building some manifolds for another shop- they've had some issues on the fab end so I am helping them out.

They're 1.5" 16gauge runners. Kinda weird but hey I'll try anything once. O0

The 16v headers are based on their design, the 8v ones will be basically my top mount design.

Anyways I don't have much to say other than that it's challenging working within the constraints of someone else's design, but I thinkI'll get things ironed out ok.

Bits for the collector:

Attachment 11224

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...i/DSC01583.jpg

Attachment 11225

I like this one:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...i/DSC01590.jpg

First runner tacked:

Attachment 11226

Attachment 11227
Basically I like to try to get the fitups air tight on 16ga. You mostly see sched 10 manifold on the net, and the 16ga stuff you see looks like hell. This is largely due to it being less tolerant of poor/lazy fitups.

Attachment 11228

Backpurge is a necessity IMO on 16ga and I think a lot of guys skip it, or use solarflux which pretty much blows for headers.


Here are some flange welds, I had to make transitions since the 16v ports are huge and the runner material is only 1.5" OD.

The welds are a bit crusty becuase I welded the inside first and had a bit of burn thru, so then the crust form that floats up into the weld on the other side. No biggie, I am pretty sure the transitions are bombproof (used 1.5" sched 10 for this because I had some and it's roughly the right size.

Attachment 11229

Attachment 11230

Into the transitions:

Attachment 11231

Well that's it for now. It's just mockup up with a standard t3 flange becuase I don't have any divided flanges right now.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Whats it going on?

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Just more boring volvo 2.3 stuff. :X :3
Funny 80 some odd views and only one reply. If a post doesn't contain actual welds, nobody gives a ----! :y :8

Will post weld pics soon, lol. I have most of the runners done now.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

it looks like it will turn out very nice. just one question. why not just use a tube size reducer or have one made at a local exhaust shop? Then form it to the shape with a vice.

that way the whole manifold is made out of the same material?

I guess i just like if everything if the same and not out of place.

my 2 cents

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Yeah I know what you mean, actual formed reducers would be way nicer. This run of manifolds have significant cost and timeline restrictions, so I just kinda used what I had "laying around" - but if I end up doing more I will definitely look into that- it'd be cleaner and less work. 8)

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

3 runners tacked. Still mulling over #1- I'm not overjoyed with how it is built as per the jig, but i have to make sure any changes to the existing design clear the coachwork so we'll see. I'll think of something.

Attachment 11189

Attachment 11190

Attachment 11191

Attachment 11192

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

youll figure something out.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Put the #1 runner on. It's a better design than the "prototype", but I need to do a test fit at RSI to confirm it clears. I'm pretty sure it does, but assumptions like that especially like to bite you in the ass....

Welded up #3 and #4 runners too, since they aren't going anywhere. i won't weld #1 and #4 until after I do the test fit...

The welds are ok. Backpurging is cool. They're still a little bit grey, but not at all black and bulbbly like if you don't purge. In soe spots they're actually gold like the pipe was welded from the inside (how it's supposed to look I suppose).

So I'm happy with that part. Good gas coverage, pretty solid penetration. Inconsistent as hell though. I was using 1/16" filler- I might try a few more test welds (I did like f'ing 30) and wimp out and use 0.035". I just can't seem to find a good rythym. It's such a fine line between burning the material and getting full pen.

I know they're be way smoother with 0.035".

Attachment 11010
Attachment 11011

Here you can see if actually looks like the collector was welded on the inside as well ass the outside, but that's actually the bead from the outrside showing through. That is ballertastic, I was happy with that.

You can also see the pen on the inside runner welds, needs just a bit more purge, but it ain't horrible.

If you view it full size from my actual photobucket page and zoom it in, you can see the pen real good, it's cool. (http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/l...t=DSC01611.jpg)

Attachment 11012

Mediocre:

Attachment 11013

The pair of runners cleaned up, except the last weld i did attaching the one runner to thother:

Attachment 11014


Some riceboys will tell you that cleaning the color off the welds is a way of hiding burnt welds. Maybe, but it's also good practice IMO on 16 gauge, because when you clean it, you can actually SEE the weld, you can see undercut, collap, pinholes, etc much better.

Better to be able to see and correct flaws than leave on the "color" tha is just surface oxidation anyways....

Anyways the verdict is I still really like the 16 gauge. I will get there on the consistency, otherwise it's not too hard to weld and not to hard to set up the purging.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Couple tips on purging,

First, you need perfect fit up, no gaps at all. Reason being is that with a gap your back gas will be exiting the seam you are welding, the gas blowing out of the seam will create turbulence with your shielding gas from your torch, which creates a really unstable arc.

Make your fits like this:
Attachment 11004
Attachment 11005
Attachment 11006
Attachment 11007

Than the next question is, how do you have your purge setup?
Right now there isn't enough gas. For 2" and smaller .065" tube I run about 10chf. Where you have the hose providing gas for your tube needs to be a tight seal, if it isn't it will be sucking oxygen into the tube. On the outlet have 1/8"-3/16" hole for your back gas to escape.
You really need to have two regulators, "T"ing off one reg is going to give you poor results.

You are bang on about the .035" filler. 1/16" filler is too big for 1/16" material, it shocks the puddle too much and is going to make your puddle really unstable and cause your arc to wander. Set the machine to about 50 amps and go at with the .035" filler :6

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Thanks dude- all of that was exactly what I was thinking.

My fitups are good enough for the most part I think, but the cap I use that fits over the tubing for the purge doesn't always fit perfectly, I bet it's totally drawing air in, that makes perfect sense.

I will make these corrections for the next 2 runners and report back. O0

Thanks again!

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

im still waiting to see your bondo work, captain :3

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Heh... well... I made this front bumper:

http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/46549029/large.jpg

That is the plug for a mold, and it's made probably from 60% bondo. It weighed about 70 pounds. :S

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

sweet looking work. ;D

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Cap, how are you getting such fat wide welds on 16ga? care to share your set up? and tips?

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Eh I'm no expert.
Amps are around 45, Miller Dynasty 200dx on straight DC (I've messed with the pulser a bit, a fast 200-400hz pulse seems to tighten the puddle up some, but for the most part I don't bother) , 3/32" ceriated tungsten as sharp as humanly possible, #8 gas lens, 1/4" stickout, 18cfh argon flow.

The weld size is mostly due to the puddle size required to manage the 1/16th filler. I need to travel a little on the slow side and wait for the puddle to widen out and almost drop right through, and then jab some filler in. This makes a wide bead with good penetration, but having to be so murderously on the edge of melting a big hole in order to keep the large filler from sucking all of the heat out of it is tough. Hence the inconsistency. If you don't make the puddle that big the filler just sticks, blobs, etc.

With smaller filler I could run maybe 5 amps hotter and travel faster, have the same penetration and a narrower, more consistent bead. That's more what I am after as the HAZ should be smaller.

You could still go slower with less amps and have the wide bead, but you will need to be really skilled at advancing the filler with you "feeder hand", as you'll be add like an inch worth of 0.035" every dip. Better to run hotter and faster IMO.



So yeah, slightly slower and more amperage will do it, you just need to wait for the puddle to grow and then be careful to not blow a hole in it.

I think schedule 10 is overkill for headers is welded/designed properly, but I d think the 16 gauge is a little light. I think after this run I am going to try something like 14 gauge @ ~0.083" as a good compromise. It's slightly thin for 1/16" filler still and almost too fat for 0.035 though. I will probably stay with 0.035" and just feed it like a mad man at around 60-65 amps or so.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

thanks for the tips. When Im doing 16ga stuff Im usually at around 50 amps with .035 wire. Mine are skinny guys but Im getting full penatratiion.

I just like the way wide beads look :P

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Ok so I tried 0.035" and 50 amps. Definitely made it easier to be consistent.

However, I also tried again with 1/16" using 60 amps, and it might actually be even better. You need to play with the footpedal a bit, but you don't have to try to advance that thin tig wire like a maniac all the time like with the 0.035". I'll just keep experimenting.

As far as the backpurge goes- sealing the gas fitting to the tube helped immensely.

Check this out, the weld you can see on the inside of the collector is the backside of the weld on the bottom. You almost can't tell the backside/inside of the weld form the outside.


Attachment 10596

I am still refining my welding technicque on the thinwall, but it's coming along nicely.

Attachment 10597

Attachment 10598

Attachment 10599

Attachment 10600

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Ya think this things goign to hold out ok? Im thinkin of building one for shits.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

With a brace, yeah I think they'll hold up pretty good.

Without a brace I don't think it's fair to demand that a 16ga mani support ~30lbs of vibrating turbo/wastegate/downpipe whilst heated over 1000 degrees over and over again though, just not reasonable.

That's fine, it's job is to spool the turbo, not be a structural member- a brace is easy enough to make. U bends sure are nice to work with, I hate weld els now. O0

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Are you going to brace to the flange or to the block? I remember someone once telling me that if you brace at the block the heat cycles will make it get all warped since the block doesnt change with it and that it will vibrate itself to death? Something along the lines of that anyway. A few years ago Aaron Weir made one, and he made some pretty nice gussets on the bends.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

|Whoa your welds are really wide man, what kind of shape you got on your tungsten?

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Yeah I dunno, I tried experimenting with different tapers too, didn't make much difference.I usually grind so the taper is 2.5-3 times longer than the diameter of the tungsten:

Attachment 10508

I could probably get them a bit smaller, but the bigger puddle I seem to get more consistent pen. I need more practice, as usual. :8

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

That angle is probably fine but I would knock the tip off an put a .015" landing on it, you will get better pen. and longer tungsten life.

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Thanks man! I really appreciate having insight from someone who does it every day.
I feel like I am really a student of welding and really want to know how do do it right, so advice from more experienced guys is gold.


I will try grinding a land on- I remember hearing to do that but I'd also heard they should be needle sharp. But really, it only stays that way for about 10 seconds anyways. Any other thoughts on the "wide beads"? Is it inherently bad?

The welds on the runners are narrower than the collector- right at 5/32" wide which seems to look fairly "proportional" for 1/16" material. Those collector welds are pushing 1/4"thoiugh which doesn't seem right, or at least not necessary. I think I was being paranoid about getting full-pen and used more heat than necessary (they just didn't turn grey because the shielding was good I suppose).

I suspect I should experiment with what sort of puddle size I actually need for full pen, rather than go overkill.


Last thing - any thoughts on weld bead reinforcement? I see headers with beads that are pretty much flush to the outside- I have always heard that especially on thinner material you always want some reinforcement top and bottom- obviously though the less convex you make the bead, the easier it is to make a nice weld and not lose puddle control.

The other theory I have heard is that the weak spot will always be the haz, and as long as the weld is minimum the thickness of the material (like, flush on the outside, with a bit of inside reinforcement just due to the puddle sinking a bit) there's no point in adding more material to the top of the weld, since you aren't strengthening the weakest point.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again!

Re: 16 gauge manifold pics
 

Keep your exterior width to around 1/8" or less. Practice on some scrap and see what you can come up with, high speed pulse will help tighten up the puddle, especially in difficult positions. The biggest thing is practice, keep your torch moving as smoothly as possible. Having a landing on your tungsten is going to give you better penetration, so does less taper on the grind, but as a trade off you lose arc stability. With a fine tip like you have you will have great arc control, but shallow penetration and if your current is the same you will just get a wide bead.

Nice work!
I am an aspiring student of the weld myself, about to take on the same kind of build.....
can you point me tword those formed transitions you were talking about earlier?
thanks

Looks good. A little sugar onthe inside, but it looks good from the picks. Did it pass the drop test is the question.

a little late but, the throat of the weld should be equal to the thicnkess of the smallest piece of base metal. (and in some places concave, but the size of those spots correctly goes up to compensate the thinning throat size)
so for your T joints unlike soooo many others you are actually producing the correct size convex weld profile on them.


reinforcement should add to no more than 1/8". on this smaller pipe just a smidge on the inside & outside are what you typically shoot for.

for the tips the angle on it is fine. you want them to be trunctuated. just touch the tip to whatever you are grinding it with to get a flat spot. the point to doing so is that it gives the arc a set place to jump off from compaired to ringing its way around a point from which ever side of the point is closest to the base metal.

the pen looked really good in some spots!

NICE work!! I almost cut my GD hand off building a collector once. The angle I was trying to cut at was not going well in my ban saw. That was before I had mill access!!

Thanks guys, I have my 16ga setup dialed in fairly well now.

Here's a more recent one, and some welds on 3" 16ga-

Attachment 8770

Attachment 8771

Bit of an ugly start/stop there but for the most part I'm happy.

New here, I have been thinking about learning how to TIG. after reading through this post, I have quickly come to realize that I still have a LOT more reading to do..lol

The welds on that 3" look pretty good.

these are some clean welds, good job man!

good skills

wow

nice man

I like those welds