Vitara owners chime in (about timing)
06-27-2008, 10:27 AM
#1
1.0 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 308
Vitara owners chime in (about timing)
I just finished putting my d16z6 together in my HF CRX and I have the car running on the basemap. So far I hae tuned that car in vacuum and it runs fine. It even runs fine in boost @WOT but one thing that I'm not sure about is the timing values in high cam. Are they too high? I never ran that much timing in some of my other setups, but they had alot more compression. The car runs at 12.0~12.2 in boost and the plugs look fine. Basically I wanted to know how much timing do you guys run around 15-18 psi in boost. Also I'm attaching my tune you you can take a look at the values. Any help would be appreciated
06-27-2008, 10:40 AM
#2
1.0 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 308
Re: Vitara owners chime in (about timing)
I'm running crome as my tuning program btw
The setup is:
- d16Z6
- TT rods/vitara pistons
- comp 59300 cam
- comp springs/retainers
- mild port/polish on th head
- stock intake
- 660cc injectors
- cdm cast manifold
- cdm .63/.50 turbo
- 2.5 downpipe and straight exhaust
The setup is:
- d16Z6
- TT rods/vitara pistons
- comp 59300 cam
- comp springs/retainers
- mild port/polish on th head
- stock intake
- 660cc injectors
- cdm cast manifold
- cdm .63/.50 turbo
- 2.5 downpipe and straight exhaust
06-27-2008, 12:57 PM
#3
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,449
Re: Vitara owners chime in (about timing)
Vitara's are super low compression...so you are generally going to need more timing (depending) or be able to get away with a lot more timing in boost.
The only way to truly tell of course is to get it on a dyno...
The only way to truly tell of course is to get it on a dyno...
07-02-2008, 03:00 AM
#6
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Vitara owners chime in (about timing)
1) Timing values change setup to setup for the following reasons:
- cam timing
- pressure/heat; high boost on a small turbo doesn't create a lot of power but it does create more heat. Hotter combustion chambers burn faster, so they like less timing. Lower CR engines don't heat the charge as much during the compression stroke, so they sometimes like more timing.
- power; power creates heat, too, but when comparing really efficient setups timing "tends to" be more in line with power level. "Tends to" doesn't mean always, so keep your eyes peeled.
2) The manner in which timing is handled via various flavors of Honda ROM editors varies wildly. I'm going to post some eCtune screenshots, I would expect Neptune to be similar. Everything else is a dice roll, so use at your own risk *especially* if using an older version of Crome/Hondata juarez without ignition corrections disabled.
3) Insert some random witticism here.
2G DSM T25 on a TT/Vitara Z6.... the cam was correctly timed by centering the distributor and adjusting the cam gear until the ignition timing lined up at 16 degrees. Be aware that:
- Going off a stock cam gear if your head/deck has been milled or headgasket thickness is not OEM, or if you are running a non-OEM combination of block/head, will NOT put your engine in correct time.
- Going off the timing marks on aftermarket adjustable cam gears = fail. They are marked 0 degrees, some of the gears on the market aren't correct.
- If you have D16Y just give up, this won't work for you. Go directly to the dyno and play with cam gear settings to bias your power where you want it.
Anyway, here's the timing I got on the dyno. Car was internally gated, made 20 psi by 3500 and tapered to 12-13 psi by revlimit. 210 wtq, 195 whp, 93 octane, expect an identical setup to want similar, but different, timing:
Low cam goodness:
High cam:
Oh, yah, reading plugs sometimes doesn't mean ----. Shine a light into the spark plug hole, look for super tiny bits of carbon blasted off the tops of the piston. It'll look like someone poked a pin through the carbon trail on the piston crown, you'll see shiny glints of aluminum underneath.
You need a dyno, or five times as much time at the track, to get everything out of your setup... but you can get 85% without a dyno, and if your compressor is big enough you can turn up the boost for more power without worrying about using it efficiently.
- cam timing
- pressure/heat; high boost on a small turbo doesn't create a lot of power but it does create more heat. Hotter combustion chambers burn faster, so they like less timing. Lower CR engines don't heat the charge as much during the compression stroke, so they sometimes like more timing.
- power; power creates heat, too, but when comparing really efficient setups timing "tends to" be more in line with power level. "Tends to" doesn't mean always, so keep your eyes peeled.
2) The manner in which timing is handled via various flavors of Honda ROM editors varies wildly. I'm going to post some eCtune screenshots, I would expect Neptune to be similar. Everything else is a dice roll, so use at your own risk *especially* if using an older version of Crome/Hondata juarez without ignition corrections disabled.
3) Insert some random witticism here.
2G DSM T25 on a TT/Vitara Z6.... the cam was correctly timed by centering the distributor and adjusting the cam gear until the ignition timing lined up at 16 degrees. Be aware that:
- Going off a stock cam gear if your head/deck has been milled or headgasket thickness is not OEM, or if you are running a non-OEM combination of block/head, will NOT put your engine in correct time.
- Going off the timing marks on aftermarket adjustable cam gears = fail. They are marked 0 degrees, some of the gears on the market aren't correct.
- If you have D16Y just give up, this won't work for you. Go directly to the dyno and play with cam gear settings to bias your power where you want it.
Anyway, here's the timing I got on the dyno. Car was internally gated, made 20 psi by 3500 and tapered to 12-13 psi by revlimit. 210 wtq, 195 whp, 93 octane, expect an identical setup to want similar, but different, timing:
Low cam goodness:
High cam:
Oh, yah, reading plugs sometimes doesn't mean ----. Shine a light into the spark plug hole, look for super tiny bits of carbon blasted off the tops of the piston. It'll look like someone poked a pin through the carbon trail on the piston crown, you'll see shiny glints of aluminum underneath.
You need a dyno, or five times as much time at the track, to get everything out of your setup... but you can get 85% without a dyno, and if your compressor is big enough you can turn up the boost for more power without worrying about using it efficiently.
07-04-2008, 03:36 PM
#8
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,081
Re: Vitara owners chime in (about timing)
I've been wondering the same thing, I have a very similar setup, and even at 20psi, i'm just not that impressed. its basically same engine with a .63/.70 t3/to4e. I really have no Idea how to tune timing at this high of a boost level, I just selected to retard .75degreees per pound, and it works great at low 24-14psi and less but much over that it just doesnt seem like it pulls like it should. I can BARELY walk on comaro ss's at 20psi. I have a hmt detcan but am afraid to trust it.
