Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

hi,

I used a bin from about the same engine and turbo for my own turbo project. (D16z5 engine, small turbo).
The ign map should be concervative and was tuned on a dyno.

I ran it to like 4-5 psi and i got pretty some detonation above 5000 rpm. I added a picture with the map (bottom map in pic) and made a new map using the stock PM7 map with -,7 degrees per pound of boost. (top map in picture)

As i compared the ign maps i see huge differences...now my question...is mine just VERY VERY concervative, or is the bottom map indeed pretty fucked up ?

Attachment 32029

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

Both are pretty fucked up. You planning on ever retarding any real amount of ignition timing?

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

oke well there's my problem. I just opened the stock PM7 ign map and retarded it (linear) -,7 which should pretty safe as i read here.

What am i doing wrong ? its my first.....

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

first off, I would start with a 1 degree per pound retard if you have no clue what you are doing or its your first map. Then get it on the dyno. It is always easier to add timing.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

D16Z5 is a flavor of DOHC ZC?

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

yes, well actually the DOHC zc is only to be found in the 86-87 EDM and JDM crx's (if i am correct) it has a vacuum advance.

Many people tend to name every D16 dohc "zc"...but yes, it is kinda the same as a D16A1 i guess. The D16Z5 1990-1991 crx (with cat converter...originally, its gone now), produces 124 bhp stock and the 1988-1989 crx has the D16A9 (which is almost the same, just a smaller clutch.200mm in stead of 210mm and no cat converter). It produces 131bhp stock.

So i think you can name the D16Z5 a "zc".

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

Ah. Those got a lot more part throttle timing than the SOHCs did, expansive combustion chamber, etc. At the end of the day I'd say it's still a small bore engine and you're feeding it too much timing - I don't know of any 75mm engines that like 0.7 deg/psi retard. For now set your maps so that you're running 14 degrees at 10 psi, and be prepared to have to fiddle timing from there because you are not D16A/Z or D16Y which are more fluent and better known. Go to TD16 or HT and lurk SOHC_MShue's posts on det-cans. That's all you need to know on ignition timing.

Does the engine go through a bit of oil? The combustion chamber might be carboned up + stuff, I was dealing with an engine last night that would ping at very conservative timing. :l

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

Does the bore of the engine really effect the ping rate really much ? didn't know that.
I guess im going to add a J&S safeguard to keep the inaudible detonation under control. its going to be a daily driver so i want a little bit realiability.

I'm going to drive it with the turbo-piping loose. See if its still rattling then..if so, its probably another new noise. Still im going to use more concervative timing. What would be nice ? 1 or so (well untill i get -14 @ 10psi i guess :) (I was told that -.75 to -.50 would be rather safe)

As you say, prepared to have to fiddle timing from there, do you mean that it its still very posible that it will/can detonate, or that it might be too concervative at some points ?

Thanks for your reply...its really helping me.

PS: no the car uses almost NO oil at all. Still it has about 170.000km on it.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

Small bore is efficiency, big bore is power. A turbo can go far, but it means you ahve to run a lot more pressure to push a smaller faced piston down just as hard as a piston with a larger face.

J&S Safeguard is an expensive semi-effective bandaid for actually tuning the car in the first place. I have considered getting one to be able to log detonation on a cyl by cyl basis, and compare to dyno + det-can info, but... plenty of people go a long way without one.

Turbo charge piping loose is just going to overspool your turbo and kill it. If you have an internal wastegate wire it open... external wastegate you can take the spring out or jimmy the internals so it hangs open. This is going to accomplish just as much as modulating your throttle so you get 0 psi on your boost gauge... and, if you are detonating that badly you can just read your plugs anyway.

When I said fiddle timing, I meant you would *probably* be safe, but you would want to get around to tuning your ignition via dyno or det-cans or paying someone at some point.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

well about the safeguard..if it works to get away the inaudible detonation...ill probably go for it. A engine only costs around 300,- but the work and inconveiniece is worth allot i think.

When i loosen my chargepipes..illl open the wastegate offcourse...would work i gues.

about the dyno-tune. that the problem. In the US, its allot more common, also it seems that almost every town has its own dragstrip ;D (At least where my brother was ).
Its hard to find a good tuner in the Netherlands, and i you find one, they don't happen to "know" honda's.
I might go to belgium, R-speed has a good reputation of tuning 350Z's, S2000's and NSX's. Might be pretty expensive...we'll see

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

It's hard to find a good tuner in America, and the nearest dragstrip is an hour and a half drive at 75 mph.

J&S is a really high functioning band-aid, but it's still a band-aid. You can probably use it's knock detection function to tune your ignition timing, though. Just remember to take out a couple extra degrees even after knock goes away.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

Is it just me? When I look at the file name in your pic, all I can see is NIG55?

I prefer map names like: pingsalittle.bin, dseriestenpoundswillturnyouout.bin, standardebaychip.bin, Stevespantyripper2.bin, BillsweetboostcutFinal.bin, -----timing.bin, massivesensordisable.bin, stunna9700.bin, coldcutcomboFinal.bin, GSR3barRinglandCrusherOL.bin, D16pistonslapperbase1.bin, EGwheezeFinalOL.bin,SS_sweetride.bin, ------bullshit3.bin, 5500pingmaster.bin

Jesus christ, I do an F3 search for *.bin to find some of my better map names and it comes up w/ over 1300 32k .bin files. Anyone want a shitty base map? only ran once, hahaha.

Oh, and do what JD suggested. Check out the DET-cans thread on HT. Itll be the best thing you ever did for your car.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

the name is in dutch my friend ;D It says, its a xeno bin, with 10% fuel added in boost, with my own ign map

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

Haha. I'm not nearly as creative, but I do have a couple like Coleisahardcore----------er.bin, WesHellacious.bin, ihateyoutravisfender7.bin, and ----.bin.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

hey im trying to make a new bin with the 14 degrees retard @10psi as you said. problem is, turbo-edit doens't retard it more than -5,40 (i fill in -1 or -2 degrees per psi boost, nothing really changes).

By 14 degrees @ 10 psi, do you mean that the colums @ 10psi say -14 ? Im a bit confused.

Attachment 31894

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

oke i just tried another bin, max boost retard (not needed cause i was running it with the turbo "unhooked".
The damn fucker just keeps driving like absolute ----. low rpm...it just doesn't pull and still the rattle (probably detonation) is still there (no boost, 450cc injectors and fuel and ign maps as stock as possible).
Also i cannot REV it higher than 4500rpm when standing still (how can this be, didn't change anything regarding the rev limit).

I just can't figure out whats wrong so im going to rebuild my car to stock :-[ ....going to try and mount it next spring again when its less cold and i have more time.

Some things i think could be the problem.
1. injectors ?? maybe something is wrong with them, i do get enough fuel though so i wouldn't think so.
2. Fuel / ign maps. My stock ECU says PM7, but when i add a stock PM7 chip, (copied into the NG55 bin)...it is way leaner than normal (also tested this before i went turbo or added other injectors).
3. ECU problems (broken in some way ??)
4 something else, probably something that i just can't figure out :S

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

Not -14, lock timing at a max of 14 for the 9+ psi columns (OBD0 MAP sensors don't read past 9.25 psi).

What exactly do you mean "turbo unhooked"? That could be part of the problem.

No low end power could be ignition timing way off, or cam timing way off. I mean to say I think that's your problem. :y

4500 rpm when sitting still = FTL.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

oke first..what do you mean with FTL ? I could rev it stock to 7300 rpm, standing stil or driving, didn't matter

About the base timing, before i added the turbo i had set my timing as stock using a strobe with digital rpm readings..the lot. I Know that was perfect when it was stock.

It could well be the timing in the ign map..i just can't figure out what it should be...PM7 is PM7 right ? my engine runs on a PM7 ECU...but the US ones were probably different ??? just my luck :X

With the turbo unhooked i mean wastegate wide open, and charge pipes disconnected. running the engine as stock as possible (just 450cc injectors). Tried to make a bin that comes as close to stock as possible. Seems that the stock PM7.bin as on turbo-edit.org isn't the same as my stock PM7 bin. runs like crap.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

You should read the stickies on TE, and do basic research. :( If it's a crisp BAH BAH BAH BAH BAH sound, like a revlimit, then the FTL is doing what it's been set to do. You downloaded a .bin instead of creating your own basemap, and now you're stuck with a 4500 rpm FTL until you learn how to push buttons on the keyboard.


Yeah, but you could have set the timing at higher than the 16 degree region of ignition timing on your map, which would result in your timing being effectively retarded. Was the distributor centered, or spun off to one side?

You could have jumped time - DOHC ZC are wierd about that, especially if they backfire or the like when playing about with tunes. Stuff happens that may have *nothing* to do with your turbo install, or everything about your monkey friend leaning on something during the install. ---- happens, you gotta deal with it.

There is no USDM PM7. Any of the timing maps you find online labelled PM7 will do, so you don't have to worry about that.

Has the turbo started puking oil from being overspun yet?

A large exhaust leak at the manifold will kill off power, too. If you have external wastegate it'll definitely kill power, internal wastegate I can't say what it'd do to your bottom end power because results will be all over the place.

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

oke well i'll check the ign timing tomorrow. see if its still good. if so, ill probably bring it back stock for a while since i won't have much time soon and the winter is coming. (I don't have a garage).

I did fiddle around with rev limits earlier when the car was still non turbo (just to get a hang of turbo-edit before going turbo).
though i find it very strange that the car won't rev higher than 4500 rpm when im not driving, but while driving its going up to 7000 as it should.
I'll look into that FTL thing....completely new of me.

as for the timing, it should be 16 degrees as you say, but the stock PM7 say 17.8 or something like that (don't know exactly by heart).
I assume the PM6 like many USDM cars have have to be set on 16 degrees, but the Pm7 cars on 17,8 or not ? just exactly like in the stock bin at the idle region ?


PS: about the oil puking, i only drove it hard for a few seconds...the rest i didn't came above 2500 rpm. To be honest i care more about my engine then about the turbo...i have another one lying around..

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

oh and by the way, i forgot to mention that the rattle or probable detonation was @5000 rpm with NO boost...so i think -1 ign retard might be enough but that its something else thats causing it to detonate. Probably base timing indeed. If its way off it will detonate (every car will). As i said..ill check that. If its set right...then i probably won't find it easily and bring it back to stock. I do hope its the base timing thats way off. This way it will probably be fixed.

I still don't know exacly what you mean with the 14 degrees @ +9psi. Call me stupid but i probably have to see it to understand what U mean

To be honest I am ashamed of myself as being a student in enginering :-[ (although im more into dynamic and mechanical systems, aerodynamics etc)

Re: Ign map that fucked up ?..please take a look
 

oh sorry i didn't read well, you mean for the entire +9psi no more than 14...so also in the 7000 rpm region... ? if so i got to read better..sorry

It does mean that my retard would be a bit more than -2 per psi which is allot i think.. :o