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-   -   FMU and AFC Hack need some help (https://www.homemadeturbo.com/engine-management-10/fmu-afc-hack-need-some-help-16614/)

DOHCZCEF9 02-28-2004 04:40 PM

FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
O.K. I'm about to finish making my own turbo kit for my 91' Civic HB with a B16a OBD1 motor. I made my own turbo kit before with my old ZC motor with the common way everyone turbo's their D series with a HF mani. Now I have a B series and I'm running a equal length tubeluar turbo manifold, Tail waste gate , GREDDY FMIC, and a basic Turbonetics T3/T4 Turbo same AR as all the DRAG and Rev. Hard kits come with. Now last time I ran DSM 450cc's and just a AFC and my ZC saddly blew up a week after I installed the kit which I wasn't supprised since I was running stock ingition and dogged the piss out of my ZC for 2 years before the turbo went on.

I'm now doing things right this time with manegment I running 310cc injectors this time , FULL MSD ignition with MSD COIL , Wires and SCi-PLUS ignition Box. But I'm in woundering about something. This local street racer thats everyone knows around here and is good with hondas says that I'm making a big mistake if I don't run a FMU. I said no I'm running a AFC which cancels out the FMU plus I hate FMU's cause they dump fuel when not needed. My friend was running a Turbo'd LS Teggy With the same set up I have and was running a AFC and a FMU. Do I really need both. Or am I right and all I need is my AFC again ? I wouldn't ask such a possibly dumb question but I just want to make sure I'm right and he's wrong. Or is it not a bad idea to have both ? Thanks guys for your help

willahlborn 02-28-2004 05:27 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
::)

You don't need an afc and fmu. Also, with your setup, I don't know why you are running 310s instead of 450s. how much boost are you planning on?

Dr.Boost 02-28-2004 05:31 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
So, this time you're "doing it right" and you're downsizing the injectors? :-\ That doesn't make sense.

If you are going to use an FMU with an AFC, I would only use a 1:1 ratio, otherwise that is way too much fuel and tuning is going to be hell.
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DOHCZCEF9 02-28-2004 07:29 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
O.K. Dr.boost I'm sorry but I should have explained why. I'll explain WHY I'm running 310's instead of 450's. When I ran the 450's on my ZC I was always running hella rich and couldn't lean it out enough. Of course like I said I had stock ZC ignition so that wasn't helping much but I was planing on running 310's cause I felt like I had more to work with. I was also thinking of running NON-turbi DSM injectors cause I hear they're like 380's. By the way does anyone know what cc's NON-Turbo ecplise's are ? I keep getting flack for going from 450's to the 300's range but like I said for some reason the thing was just running to damn rich so I have two friends running 310's on B series motors and both said they're perfect. Why do you think I should go with DSM 450's again DR. ?

Dr.Boost 02-28-2004 08:02 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
What blew on your ZC? I'm guessing ringlands? I don't se how you could have been running rich at -50% on the AFC. That seems impossible since -50% would put it at ~225cc which is smaller than stock, so either your AFC was fucked up or your injectors were. Also, what was the fuel pressure set at? No FMU right? Something had to have been wrong.

310cc injectors will not allow you to "scale" the map sensor signal far enough to run more thna a few pounds of boost. Not only that, it won't supply enough fuel for anything above that. :-\

If you were staying N/A that might be fine, but not for boost.
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willahlborn 02-28-2004 08:08 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
Using an AFC *does* affect your timing. If you're using an afc, the unit is lowering the map sensor voltage your ecu sees, so when the ecu looks up how much advance/retard to run in your ignition maps, it is using more advance than usual.

I guess I still don't understand why you bother with 380s when you could have 450. eventually you'll want more boost than the 380s can handle (I don't know how much boost that is though) and you'll need bigger injectors. If you can't get it to idle right with an safc, then you're doing it wrong. Go with the bigger injectors up front.

Dr.Boost 02-28-2004 08:26 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
He said 310cc, not 380cc. :P Even worse. :-\
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DOHCZCEF9 02-28-2004 11:29 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
*** Sorry this is long ******

O.K. I thought I put a post up WAY long ago when I blew my ZC up but how I blew it up was I dropped a valve. Not sure how it happen. The motor was running real rich and I could tell cause I could smell the raw fuel. I even set my B&M adjustable FPR at 20 PSi and still running pegged A/F gauge and smelling fuel. Very wierd though. Literally 20 second before it blew up the car ran perfect and I thought I worked the bugs out... So I hit the gas and I'm getting it running into 3rd gear and then I heard a loud clunk and I shut the car off right away and coasted to my shop. I pulled my spark plug out of #4 cyclinder and to my shock the spark plug was literally smashed then I yanked the motor and pulled the held off to see a golf ball size hole in my #4 piston and the valve shaft was smashed into the head.

I couldn't even pry the valve off the head the motor was trashed and pieces of piston everywhere and I then decided I was done with ZC's and went B series.I guess I'll run 450cc injectors this time. Like I said before with my ZC I was running stock timing no retard. Stock Dizzy, Stock plugs, Stock wires but doubled the injector size. I leraned my lesson and upgraded my whole ignition system all MSD goods that I took off my other HB that I have that came with the car. Also I was running stock fuel pump. I'm told I should now with the B16 run a 255lb."DR.Boost":..... If I put the 255lb intank pump in my car now with no turbo will the car run o.k. or will it run to rich.

I have my AFC still hooked up so I could lean it out. It's a b*tch to drop the tank as all EF owners know so I want to get it outof the way. I have a B&M Cammando Adjustable FPR and my AFC on my B16 now. So Say I'm running all my MSD ignition stuff. I retard the timing alittle and run a AFC with 450cc's and a 255lb pump and I'll be all right. Also I'm running a Wide band O2 sensor kit this time so I get a accurate A/F ratio reading this time. I should have everything covered. Does that sound better. I'm only running 8 PSi max right now cause I don't want to blow this motor up. I have a second B16 motor that I'm building on the side to handle 14-16 PSi.

But when my kit first goes on I will be only running 8 PSi and I'm having the car DYNO tuned that week already have stuff scheduled for the dyno run so everything is going to plan the only thing I need is FUEL just cause I'm stuck cause I'm hearing mixed stuff. THANK YOU for all your guys help.

DOHCZCEF9 02-28-2004 11:32 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
ALSO is there any way by looking at or using a volt meter or something to tell if a injector is a peak hold or sachurated style ( no resistor box ) injector type. My friend says he has RC's 380's I believe that he'll sell me for $60 cause I've done alot of work for him but he's not sure what style injectors they are. They are for hondas though. Any way I can tell beside just sticking them on my car and seeing if I throw a injector CEL ? thanks

willahlborn 02-29-2004 02:57 AM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
First of all if you're only looking to run 8 lbs of boost, your injectors and the afc hack should be sufficient. The fuel pump is okay I guess, but the fpr is overkill I think.

Second, yes, you can tell what kind of injectors. RC engineering only makes 370cc injectors, not 380. But they make that size in both peak-and-hold and saturated style. So, take a volt meter and measure the resistance between the two contacts on the injector. 2.5-3 ohms is peak and hold, while 12-16 ohms is saturated.

Dr.Boost 02-29-2004 08:51 AM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
Your old motor blew because your valve dropped. That had nothing to do with the tune or the injectors.

I would get the pump just for piece of mind. No, you won't run rich with it on a N/A motor.

I think you're making a mistake buying those injectors, but it's your money and your car. There is a reason people buy the 450cc injectors. :-\
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SlowMotiion 02-29-2004 04:04 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
I tried to read this thread and make some sense out of it, but it was extremely difficult to do so.

I have a similar question... when boosting a d16a6 for 6-8 psi, which would be a better option? FMU or AFC? Could someone explain how each works and the positives and negatives of both. It would really help me out. Thanks!

91civicZ6 02-29-2004 04:18 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
bottom line, FMU's suck the dick.

DOHCZCEF9 02-29-2004 06:04 PM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 
O.K. it looks like I'm going with the 450cc's. I was at the drag track today and was talking to a guy with a turbo GS-R and he was running 440's or 450's and he said and recommended what DR did and use the 450's and not the 310's. I haven't bought the RC's yet my friend said he'd sell them to me for cheap but he didn't know what kind of injectors they were ( i.e. peak hold , sacurated ). Second I don't see whats so hard about this post. The post was about if I need to run a FMU and a AFC or both. I have experience with AFC's and thats all I ever used or recommend. I simply got into a friendly dis-agreement about if I did or did not need a FMU. I don't like FMU's. I already have the AFC and just wanted to know if the FMU is needed or not. So to make it simple the post is about me already having a AFC and wanting to know if I needed a FMU and recommendations on injector sizes. I'll get the new fuel pump a friend of mine has a 255lb pump new in the box. I already have the AFC ad working on getting the 450cc's injectors I sold to friend..... I'm trying to get them back cause he's not using them. I hope this clears up things.

willahlborn 03-01-2004 12:03 AM

Re:FMU and AFC Hack need some help
 

Originally Posted by SlowMotiion
I tried to read this thread and make some sense out of it, but it was extremely difficult to do so.

I have a similar question... when boosting a d16a6 for 6-8 psi, which would be a better option? FMU or AFC? Could someone explain how each works and the positives and negatives of both. It would really help me out. Thanks!

There was an extremely good writeup of the differences between fmu and afc on turbod16.com, but you have to sift through alot of bullshit posts to find it, so i'll just copy it here:

props to Nick7 on turbod16.com for this writup.

Now.. to all that FMU/AFC stuff... pros and cons of each one.

First, 'the hack'.
Well, before I put my turbo on - I thought of going that way.. larger injectors, etc, etc...
Anyhow, got 310cc injectors from Honda Prelude, put them in, resistor box... put SMT5 to tune them.
Well, it ran... actually, due to 'hack' I got even little more power than before. How? 1st, I could run it a little richer... and 2nd hack advances timing.
OK, here's the *bad* thing about hack - timing advance. Why it happens?
First you need to understand how hack works/what it does.
Simply put - hack alters MAP signal. Since you put larger injectors, we need to lower duty cycle of 'em to keep mixture at same ratio as it would be with stock injectors. The way hack does it is to lower MAP signal - thus ECU thinks there is less air going to engine, and thus reducing duty cycle of injectors -> which results in approx same mixture as with stock injectors (if tuned properly).
But! reducing MAP signal did not only reduce ammount of fuel.. since ECU read there is less air, it also advanced timing!
Now that's where things get tricky.
As you know MAP reads ~0.9V in idle, at 0psi it reads 3V. At 3.1V (~0.5psi or even less) ECU goes in limp mode, since it doesn't have maps for boost.
At 5V MAP reads 10-11psi.
So... let's assume you got 440cc injectors, and have -40% set all way on AFC.
Now, what will ECU read: at 0psi it'll read (3V * 0.6) = 1.8V. So whis is what ECU 'sees' when you're running at 0psi. 1.8V for ECU is somewhat big of vacuum, and thus it also advances ignition. At 11psi you have 5V on MAP, and (5 * 0.6) = 3V ECU reading.
Now we can also throw in MSD BTM to make even more mess
What does it all come down to?
Well, it comes down to this: At vacuum you are advanced in igniton timing. At 0psi aswell. At 1psi, you are *stll* advanced even with MSD BTM - since ECU advanced rather much, and BTM just started to retard.
At some 4-5psi, if you'we set MSD BTM to 1 degree per psi, you would be to somewhere near stock timing at 0psi (remember at 4psi you still got advanced timing from ECU, and some retard by MSD). However at 11psi - ECU will finally read 3V (and put no timing advance), and BTM will retard to what it was set (like 11 degrees now due to 1degree per psi).

Another issue is part-throttle boosting.
Imagine 'cruising' on freeway at 4-5psi, at 50% throttle. Not hard to imagine, right? But imagine what yr engine thinks of it... or actually - ECU.
1st - it reads 50% TPS, 2nd it reads vacuum (due to hack) ... and end result - closed loop! Hmmm... I *don't* think at 4-5psi closed loop is such a good idea.... do you?

And last but not least - one *big* (?) advantage of AFC... you can 'tune' it! Yay! .. yes, you can set at what % you'll reduce MAP readings for ECU to read.. kinda neat to make that perfect A/F ratio at WOT... too bad at closed loop ECU does pretty good its thing
And that 'tuning' is why many people swear on AFC... too bad they always forget the 'hack' part when talking about AFC and why it actually stands there...

Uhh.... now that was lotsa text... hope you understand now what AFC does for timing....

Well, now we can cover FMU.
It's rather simple.. untill 0psi yr car runs like stock. When there is some boost missing link/FCD will fool ECU in not seeing boost, thus just making it see 3V. What does this mean? that at 0psi, as at 4psi and 8psi - your timing will be all the way the same, as opposed to advanced with AFC.
Whoa.... now that seems like FMU is *better* what AFC, doesn't it?
Well, partly - since FMU has it's downside... what it does is raise fuel pressure to give more fuel for more air. This makes lots of stress on injectors and fuel pump (inline is a must have for FMU!).
On a sidenote.. if using MSD BTM... you get that real deal. You'll timing retard will be exactly what MSD does, for each psi you'll have X degree retard and no advances from ECU.

Standalone management.. think there is no need to say anything.. as you can adjust just about everything with it... timing/fuel... and it *is* way to go if you got $$$.


Now, for conclusion.
As I said on beginning of post: I tried larger injectors... but as you see in my sig - I run FMU. Well, with larger injectors my car just didn't feel smooth as it was before... I really tried for some 2 months to get rid of all quirks... but was unable. So I went FMU way.
Many people also comment FMU on making 'jerky' boost transition. Well, I can only speak from my experience - I have *no* jerkiness at all, car runs really smooth, when going in boost/out of boost.. all the way!
Only thing that does kinda scare me is high fuel pressures thue to FMU (10:1 ratio)... and that I get boost creep to almost 9psi (0.6bar).
But, it runs (so far) great... I have stock timing and have no detonations... even at 5th gear pulls (when I creep to 9psi).

... and as for part throttle boosting... from what I could've read of A/F gauge - no matter how imprecise - at part throttle with FMU when going into boost it starts going to rich part... which *is* good.

All in all... FMU is good for lower boost setups. It works.
AFC does work too... but you should know what it does.


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