EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
04-05-2005, 08:36 AM
#11
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 0
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
I don't understand this entire post, Sphinx. You ask how worthless narrowband is. Everybody says its worthless, yet it sounds like you are still intent on tuning with it. If it's ~14.7 it'll be yellow. Above that, it'll be red, and below that it'll be green. Thats all you can really do with it. End of story. You could be running 13.5:1 at 18psi and the narrowband would say it's rich, when in fact, its technically too lean (for boost)
04-05-2005, 09:01 AM
#12
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,449
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
Maybe yall need a picture to understand it better...
You can see the range where the guage is even slightly accurate...it is a very small area.
You can see the range where the guage is even slightly accurate...it is a very small area.
06-16-2005, 10:02 PM
#13
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
I'm going to bump this. Just for the sake of it. A narrow band is no substitute for a wideband, but on a lower power turbo, or N/A engine's they're not useless.
, and are used.
Anyway... At a normal operating temperature of 600*F.
Volts A/F ratio:
0.1 - 17:1
0.2 - 16.5
0.3 - 16:1
0.4 - 15.4
0.5 - 14.9
0.6 - 14.4
0.7 - 13.8
0.8 - 13.2
0.9 - 12.7
0.985 - 12.1
What *must* be taken into consideration is that voltage will change with heat, all most as much as oxygen.
*If* you take a heated lambda sensor and mount it near the end of the exhaust, where it has cooled and won't be affected by heat much, it will produce fairly accurate results. Not only that, as temperature rises, the sensor will read slightly lean.
*How* accurate can it be? They'll normally bounce between dead on, and reading leaner than the mixture actually is.
Example. It's reading a 13.5 A/F ratio at 750mv. The engine is ACTUALLY going to be more around a 12.5, or 12 A/F ratio.
You definitely, always, want at least 875mv when making boost.
If you tune by what the o2 sensor actually reads, you get a built in margin of safety
Rules:
1) DO NOT TUNE a very high strung engine without a wideband unless you actually know what you're doing
2) TUNE WITH A MULTI METER - LED A/F meter's are not setup accurately enough to *TUNE* with.
3) Once you've tuned, the A/F gauges are fine for "keeping tabs" on the system.
4) It *MUST* be a heated sensor, located AWAY from heat.
In a nutshell:
Are lambda sensors useless - no
Can you tune exclusively with one - yes
How accurate when setup correctly - within 1.5 A/F ratio. Because they are heat sensitive, if you tune by what they read, you will be richer than it actually tells you.
, and are used.
Anyway... At a normal operating temperature of 600*F.
Volts A/F ratio:
0.1 - 17:1
0.2 - 16.5
0.3 - 16:1
0.4 - 15.4
0.5 - 14.9
0.6 - 14.4
0.7 - 13.8
0.8 - 13.2
0.9 - 12.7
0.985 - 12.1
What *must* be taken into consideration is that voltage will change with heat, all most as much as oxygen.
*If* you take a heated lambda sensor and mount it near the end of the exhaust, where it has cooled and won't be affected by heat much, it will produce fairly accurate results. Not only that, as temperature rises, the sensor will read slightly lean.
*How* accurate can it be? They'll normally bounce between dead on, and reading leaner than the mixture actually is.
Example. It's reading a 13.5 A/F ratio at 750mv. The engine is ACTUALLY going to be more around a 12.5, or 12 A/F ratio.
You definitely, always, want at least 875mv when making boost.
If you tune by what the o2 sensor actually reads, you get a built in margin of safety
Rules:
1) DO NOT TUNE a very high strung engine without a wideband unless you actually know what you're doing
2) TUNE WITH A MULTI METER - LED A/F meter's are not setup accurately enough to *TUNE* with.
3) Once you've tuned, the A/F gauges are fine for "keeping tabs" on the system.
4) It *MUST* be a heated sensor, located AWAY from heat.
In a nutshell:
Are lambda sensors useless - no
Can you tune exclusively with one - yes
How accurate when setup correctly - within 1.5 A/F ratio. Because they are heat sensitive, if you tune by what they read, you will be richer than it actually tells you.
06-16-2005, 11:34 PM
#14
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,260
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
You're an idiot.
Once you reply to this message, I'm going to delete your post as to not have this retardedness in the archives.
Look at the picture you posted, and look at the values you posted. They're a direct contradiction of each other!!!! ..not to mention the fact that you say a narrowband sensor is within 1.5 AFR of your target, uh, earth to idiot, if your target is 12.5, and you're "within" 1.5 lean.. you're saying to tune your car to 14.0... (since it will be "richer" if you tune by what you read).
A narrowband will *NOT* read passed 14.2:1.. or 15.2:1.. The picture (which is correct.. it's your lame table that is wrong) shows this perfectly. ..it also corrosponds with my personal experience in logging AFRs from different sensors, *AND* PLX's published information on O2 sensors.
...forums are POSs because of people like you who regurgitate information they read on some OTHER forum. Well, sir, you can take your 3 posts and paste them somewhere else, that non-sense doesn't fly here.
Once you reply to this message, I'm going to delete your post as to not have this retardedness in the archives.
Look at the picture you posted, and look at the values you posted. They're a direct contradiction of each other!!!! ..not to mention the fact that you say a narrowband sensor is within 1.5 AFR of your target, uh, earth to idiot, if your target is 12.5, and you're "within" 1.5 lean.. you're saying to tune your car to 14.0... (since it will be "richer" if you tune by what you read).
A narrowband will *NOT* read passed 14.2:1.. or 15.2:1.. The picture (which is correct.. it's your lame table that is wrong) shows this perfectly. ..it also corrosponds with my personal experience in logging AFRs from different sensors, *AND* PLX's published information on O2 sensors.
...forums are POSs because of people like you who regurgitate information they read on some OTHER forum. Well, sir, you can take your 3 posts and paste them somewhere else, that non-sense doesn't fly here.
06-17-2005, 12:18 AM
#15
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,449
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
I was about to say the same thing...thank god I dont have to type anything now.
06-17-2005, 11:27 AM
#16
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
There is no call for you being rude.
I am on YOUR SIDE. You simply don't see it. You CAN'T tune by reading the stock o2 sensors. Nor can lambda sensors replace a wideband unit.
What I am saying is that you *can* make them useful enough to use, provided you understand their massive faults, and why they read inaccureatly when they do.
That common map you always see is an unheated o2 sensor, that has not warmed up to operating temperature. When warmed up and operating they fluctuate, just as any other o2 sensor.
YOU MUST STABILIZE THE TEMPERATURE
If you plug into an OEM installed o2 sensor. Sure they will read around stoich acceptably.
The second you hit the gas, they are useless. They're simply not calibrated to deal with the temperature fluctuations when the engine is working hard, and their temperature is rising and falling at large rates.
You can hit the gas and immediately see 900mv on some, simply due to heat. not to mention the signal is not stabilized, and will dance around wildly.
Hook one up yourself and prove that I am wrong. You're bound to have an accurate multi-meter, and enough wire to hook one up, or move the stock one to the tailpipe.
I never said to tune an engine lean... I said if you tune it to what it reads, it will be running richer than a lambda sensor will read. What someone does with the information is on THEIR hands. But it is correct.
The table is correct also. [/u]It's information taken from BOSCH!!?!?!?!?[/u]
Due to the simple nature of how lambda o2 sensors are built, it won't vary on other brands of sensors... It's accurate on my two denso sensors on my turbo v6... Windeband verified. Not only have I used it on my own car, I've used it on a few others, and it has worked the same on all. That list includes a wideband installed 400awhp celica.
I wanted to see how accurate it would be before using it on my own car. It would read dead with it until around 12.5-12 A/F ratio. Could you TUNE that celica
Hell no. You'd have to have a wideband.
With a new sensor, it might have read better. There newer lambda sensors will generate 1.1v-1.3v volts isntead of the old 950mv-1v.
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=2055
http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/oxygen_sensors.htm
It winds up being something like this if you can stabilize the temp.
I am on YOUR SIDE. You simply don't see it. You CAN'T tune by reading the stock o2 sensors. Nor can lambda sensors replace a wideband unit.
What I am saying is that you *can* make them useful enough to use, provided you understand their massive faults, and why they read inaccureatly when they do.
That common map you always see is an unheated o2 sensor, that has not warmed up to operating temperature. When warmed up and operating they fluctuate, just as any other o2 sensor.
YOU MUST STABILIZE THE TEMPERATURE
If you plug into an OEM installed o2 sensor. Sure they will read around stoich acceptably.
The second you hit the gas, they are useless. They're simply not calibrated to deal with the temperature fluctuations when the engine is working hard, and their temperature is rising and falling at large rates.
You can hit the gas and immediately see 900mv on some, simply due to heat. not to mention the signal is not stabilized, and will dance around wildly.
Hook one up yourself and prove that I am wrong. You're bound to have an accurate multi-meter, and enough wire to hook one up, or move the stock one to the tailpipe.
I never said to tune an engine lean... I said if you tune it to what it reads, it will be running richer than a lambda sensor will read. What someone does with the information is on THEIR hands. But it is correct.
The table is correct also. [/u]It's information taken from BOSCH!!?!?!?!?[/u]
Due to the simple nature of how lambda o2 sensors are built, it won't vary on other brands of sensors... It's accurate on my two denso sensors on my turbo v6... Windeband verified. Not only have I used it on my own car, I've used it on a few others, and it has worked the same on all. That list includes a wideband installed 400awhp celica.
I wanted to see how accurate it would be before using it on my own car. It would read dead with it until around 12.5-12 A/F ratio. Could you TUNE that celica Hell no. You'd have to have a wideband.With a new sensor, it might have read better. There newer lambda sensors will generate 1.1v-1.3v volts isntead of the old 950mv-1v.
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=2055
http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/oxygen_sensors.htm
It winds up being something like this if you can stabilize the temp.
06-17-2005, 11:29 AM
#17
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
THE PROBLEM WITH LAMBDA SENSORS IS TEMPERATURE FLUCTUATION.
TEMPERATURE
TEMPERATURE
TEMPERATURE
Just hook one up away from heat and read it.
I am TELLING people not to use an LED meter for tuning.
The LED displays don't work because of two reasons:
1) They stabilize the voltage so they can produce a pretty pattern. Making it useless & laggy for tuning.
2) They can't accurately enough display / read the voltatge that is supplied to them.
YOU CAN NOT use a lambda o2 sensor anywhere near the engine. They read all over the place...
You can't tune either one, let alone read a crappy gauge and attempt it.
I'm saying it just the same as you.[/b] It's just that I know, from first hand knowledge no less, what their problems are, and how to eliminate the majority of them. When you do that, they become useable, BUT NO SUBSTITUE, for a wideband.
Their responce will lag a wideband by a split second simply by placing it in the tailpipe. But if the person tuning with it is doing a good job (without even knowing that fact) It is tuned out immediatly.
I am as adamantly against using them to solely tune as you are, because I too know how bad they are. The difference between myself, and you is that I know how to negate some of that limitation. There was no reason to bash me... I am with you.
TEMPERATURE
TEMPERATURE
TEMPERATURE
Just hook one up away from heat and read it.
I am TELLING people not to use an LED meter for tuning.
The LED displays don't work because of two reasons:
1) They stabilize the voltage so they can produce a pretty pattern. Making it useless & laggy for tuning.
2) They can't accurately enough display / read the voltatge that is supplied to them.
YOU CAN NOT use a lambda o2 sensor anywhere near the engine. They read all over the place...
You can't tune either one, let alone read a crappy gauge and attempt it.
I'm saying it just the same as you.[/b] It's just that I know, from first hand knowledge no less, what their problems are, and how to eliminate the majority of them. When you do that, they become useable, BUT NO SUBSTITUE, for a wideband.
Their responce will lag a wideband by a split second simply by placing it in the tailpipe. But if the person tuning with it is doing a good job (without even knowing that fact) It is tuned out immediatly.
I am as adamantly against using them to solely tune as you are, because I too know how bad they are. The difference between myself, and you is that I know how to negate some of that limitation. There was no reason to bash me... I am with you.
06-17-2005, 12:41 PM
#18
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,449
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
My god, you are a walking contradiction arent you?
In about 3 breaths you tell people they are useless, the you say they ARE useful using bold and italics I assume to get your point across.
Plain and simple...if you think you can use one to tune...great, go for it (may Darwin hold a special place for you in his heart). But the general consensus is to not even SLIGHTLY recommend that a narrowband sensor is at all useful for tuning an engine (because it isn't).
Get it?
Great
In about 3 breaths you tell people they are useless, the you say they ARE useful using bold and italics I assume to get your point across.
Plain and simple...if you think you can use one to tune...great, go for it (may Darwin hold a special place for you in his heart). But the general consensus is to not even SLIGHTLY recommend that a narrowband sensor is at all useful for tuning an engine (because it isn't).
Get it?
Great
06-17-2005, 01:25 PM
#19
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,811
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
I know yall don't like the idea. I 100% understand that yall have never heard a semi-plausible solution. You have now, and I would just like for it to at least be looked into before it's thrown out the window as a "stupid idea".
I know I contridict some. It comes from what I'm use to. Look I don't work on Honda engine's. That's what this board primarily is. The reason for the slightly contridictions is I might own one, but I've never touched it in a performance way. I am use to working with most ofToyota's v6s. If you're a ton lean, and/or have a small ping, you're simply not going to experiance any damage. Normally, not for a long time.
btw, my first car was an '89 Honda civic hatch. It's in the driveway and my DD anytime the Lexus isn't able to move. (Or I have to haul stuff around) It has a few hundred thousand miles on it. I don't know exactly how many. The speedo/odo stopped working ten years ago, and I've never felt like finding out why.
Anyways, I (obviously) thinks it works well enough to use. I'm just trying to help. If someone would stick (or move) and o2 sensor to their tailpipe just to humor us. I would be happy.
I know I contridict some. It comes from what I'm use to. Look I don't work on Honda engine's. That's what this board primarily is. The reason for the slightly contridictions is I might own one, but I've never touched it in a performance way. I am use to working with most ofToyota's v6s. If you're a ton lean, and/or have a small ping, you're simply not going to experiance any damage. Normally, not for a long time.
btw, my first car was an '89 Honda civic hatch. It's in the driveway and my DD anytime the Lexus isn't able to move. (Or I have to haul stuff around) It has a few hundred thousand miles on it. I don't know exactly how many. The speedo/odo stopped working ten years ago, and I've never felt like finding out why.
Anyways, I (obviously) thinks it works well enough to use. I'm just trying to help. If someone would stick (or move) and o2 sensor to their tailpipe just to humor us. I would be happy.
06-18-2005, 12:15 AM
#20
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,260
Re: EXACTLY how useless is a narrow band with a a/f gauge
..let me just throw one idea at your little idea..
...exhaust gas temperature is based on combustion chamber temps, and directly effected by ignition values, as much as fuel. So, what you're saying is, find a place in your downpipe that at the time you test it, it's at 600 degrees? What idle? ..what WOT? You also ask for someone to measure this temp, keep drilling holes in your exhaust until you find the right spot?....
..not to mention ..when you have this resolution (0-1v) your points of change are minimal. ..and with such minimal points between change (giving you the benefit of the doubt on this idiocy).. anything will effect the readings. *ESPECIALLY* with the fact that a lot of them don't even have a self heated element...
....geezzz. I'm not even going to get into this crap. Even talking about it pisses me off because this is going to confuse a lot of people who have nothing but forums to go off of.
As for me being rude, sorry to inform you, I'm not here to be anyone's friend. I'm here to moderate crap. I'm here to keep people from blowing up thier engine because someone's sister-in-law's baby cousin Tracy found an article on the Internet where someone tuned a car with anarrowband ------- sensor.
...are you kidding me? Check your feelings at the door, dude, bring fact. This crap is heresay. Not to mention a whole lot of inaccurate. I know you read this in an artcile. I could give a ----.
..show me your narrowband datalogs, and your matching dynograph, and I'll give a ---- about your (giving you the benefit of the doubt) theory.
...exhaust gas temperature is based on combustion chamber temps, and directly effected by ignition values, as much as fuel. So, what you're saying is, find a place in your downpipe that at the time you test it, it's at 600 degrees? What idle? ..what WOT? You also ask for someone to measure this temp, keep drilling holes in your exhaust until you find the right spot?....
..not to mention ..when you have this resolution (0-1v) your points of change are minimal. ..and with such minimal points between change (giving you the benefit of the doubt on this idiocy).. anything will effect the readings. *ESPECIALLY* with the fact that a lot of them don't even have a self heated element...
....geezzz. I'm not even going to get into this crap. Even talking about it pisses me off because this is going to confuse a lot of people who have nothing but forums to go off of.
As for me being rude, sorry to inform you, I'm not here to be anyone's friend. I'm here to moderate crap. I'm here to keep people from blowing up thier engine because someone's sister-in-law's baby cousin Tracy found an article on the Internet where someone tuned a car with anarrowband ------- sensor.
...are you kidding me? Check your feelings at the door, dude, bring fact. This crap is heresay. Not to mention a whole lot of inaccurate. I know you read this in an artcile. I could give a ----.
..show me your narrowband datalogs, and your matching dynograph, and I'll give a ---- about your (giving you the benefit of the doubt) theory.
