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Confusion about Plugs.

Old 06-02-2005, 02:31 AM
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Default Confusion about Plugs.

Was just reading thru the old posts and a frequent number that gets thrown up is NGK 7s.

We tune bikes a lot. Stock RXGs 100cc two strokes come with NGK 7s.
Stock RD/RZs come with 8s. And they recomend 9s for sustained high speed.

After we port and pipe the engines we recomend 10s.

7s are normally recomended for small lawnmowers and garden equipment.
8s for stock 9s for race and 10s for really hot high output engines.

We have had lots of cases where guys have run 7s in a tuned motor and melted the plug and piston.

So Im totally foxed as to what NGK plugs to get for my car.
Thanks for your time.
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Old 06-02-2005, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

Umm...boost levels, power, engine, setup information would all be very nice to know to make any recommendations.
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Old 06-02-2005, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

Originally Posted by chinoy
So Im totally foxed as to what NGK plugs to get for my car.
Use the lavender ones.
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Old 06-02-2005, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

Setup is a getho Turbo runing 14 PSI.

Question is simple why are people recomending NGK 7s when 9s or 10s whould be better at dealing with the extra heat.
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Old 06-02-2005, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

Originally Posted by chinoy
Setup is a getho Turbo runing 14 PSI.

Question is simple why are people recomending NGK 7s when 9s or 10s whould be better at dealing with the extra heat.
You do understand what the heat range specifies on a plug right? 9s/10s are probably more expensive and less readily available is one of my guesses. Also...no one I know has detonation/pre-ignition issues that would require a 5 step colder plug. Chances are, if you NEED to use a 9/10 range plug...you've got other stuff going on in your combustion chamber that wont be letting your motor last too much longer anywho...

7s are more than fine for a ghetto setup at 14psi...
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Old 06-02-2005, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

if you go too cold, the plugs foul. Just go 1 or 2 ranges colder than stock, youll be fine.
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Old 06-03-2005, 02:11 AM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

Automotive engines have a larger and more effective cooling jacket, and their blocks are much more massive and therefore more well equipped for dealing with excess heat. Going super chilly on spark plugs is pointless.

You want BRK7E-11 which is NGK stock number 1283. Avoid gimcrackery like iridium and platinum and splitfire. Nothing creates a larger plasma kernel than steel electrode plugs with a healthy ignition system - aside from a plasma ion ignition, as found on F1 cars, of course.
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

That answers my question so stock is 5. They say jump two heat ranges and we reach 7. Right cool. What your saying makes perfect sence.

Since you seem to know what your talking about.

1. We calculate Ignition delay at 8 degrees for most bikes. Is this the same on a car.

2. What are your thoughts on multi spark.
My theory is better to use all the juice you have to power one really good big spark rather than multiple sparks. Multi spaks will allways have less energy and heat than single spark right.

3. What has ion sencing got to do with spark strength. Isnt it just a techonology to pick the optimum fire point.

4. Im thinking of building a new Ignition for my car. What would be the best to go for here are the options under consideration.

1. TCI. Probally what its runing right now. Except I dont think TCI is good for anything over 7000 RPM as the RPM climbs the time you have falls away. Dwell angle becomes an issu.

2.Ferite core based. Where we take juice from the Bat. step it up to 400-500 volts and use that to charge a cap. Know any good online source for ferites.
We are still testing with hand winding our own ferites and the best so far has been 400 volts. a/c

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Old 06-03-2005, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

Originally Posted by chinoy
That answers my question so stock is 5. They say jump two heat ranges and we reach 7. Right cool. What your saying makes perfect sence.
NGK's are supposed to be good for three heat ranges - the specified one, and the two adjacent. Still, I'd only jump two steps colder if you're planning on excessive combustion temps, such as approaching knock limit on a boosted setup or running super high CR in a NA app.



Originally Posted by chinoy
1. We calculate Ignition delay at 8 degrees for most bikes. Is this the same on a car.
I'm not sure I follow what you mean by delay. Can you explain in more detail?


I ASSume you're talking about turbocharging bikes? Got any links to good forums to haunt on that subject? I have some R6 kid pestering me about what to do with his after he got rolled by a car I was tuning. I'm not really up to speed on motorcyles, I'm a bit of a two wheeled tard.



Originally Posted by chinoy
2. What are your thoughts on multi spark.
My theory is better to use all the juice you have to power one really good big spark rather than multiple sparks. Multi spaks will allways have less energy and heat than single spark right.
Ideally, one good spark is what you want. Current ignition systems are a bit on the antiquated side, so the multiple spark gimcrackery shows some gains as long as it doesn't interfere with the coil's being able to charge adequately; there is a reason the MSD units only use multiple spark shinola below 3000 rpm.



Originally Posted by chinoy
3. What has ion sencing got to do with spark strength. Isnt it just a techonology to pick the optimum fire point.
Plasma ion is the name for it - true plasma kernel ignition with ion sensing built in. We're not dealing with sparks anymore in the F1 engines. You do realize a flash of bright light ignites compressed + adabiatic heated AF mixtures just as well as a spark/flame? Plasma ignitions accomplish both light and flame/spark requirements, you won't blow them out as easily as a conventional ignition with poor gap and/or super dense charge.



Originally Posted by chinoy
2.Ferite core based. Where we take juice from the Bat. step it up to 400-500 volts and use that to charge a cap. Know any good online source for ferites.
We are still testing with hand winding our own ferites and the best so far has been 400 volts. a/c
I ------- love you. Got any writeups on how you go about it? Because I'd like to hear more.

Mean Gringo Bob was asking me about www.directhits.com a few weeks back - I believe that is what you are DIYing.





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Old 06-04-2005, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Confusion about Plugs.

Na what we are trying has nothing to do with the link you posted.
THat sounds more like a con.
Ive seen units like that and have studied them its true the spark is better. But not all that better.

Im not sure what technique they are using but both have been studied in the lab and torn to shreds.

Method 1.
All they have inside the cap will be an air gap of arround 5-10mm. So when the HT coil fires the current has to build up to much higher voltages before it can bridge the gap. So you do get a higher voltage spark. Try this experiment. Take a fould plug and try runing the engine it wont run. Now hold the HT coil lead 5-10mm away from the tip of the plug. THe spark is so strong it gets the plug to fire.
We have studied many such systems and all we have found is an air gap.

Method 2.
They use a capasitor and claim it stores spark eneargy and increases spark strength. When in actuall fact all it does is act as a filter.

WHat we have been chasing for the past 6 years is simple. The highest friging voltage we can get with the most MJ of eneargy.

Most bikes have an alternator with a source coil that produces the juice for spark energy. What we do is use a ferite to add another 400 volts a/c to the cap.
We have found polution outputs drop. i.e. Non cat con exhaust producing better smog test results than cat con bikes.
Better mileage and more power.
We also found you can run the engines much richer. We still havent figured out how this works. Cause we had figured. No matter how much gas you feed the engine the limiting factor is the oxygen. So how is a better spark allowing us to run more gas and giving us better power.

THe really bitchng part is that all the Automotive IGBTs and SCRs are rated at 400 to 410 volts. I get my stuff from onsemi.com We are finding the cross over from ok performance to good performance to be arround 550-600 volts. 2.4 MFD caps.
Finally also found a suplier for high voltage IGBTs they are used by the Welding Machine guys.

On the ferite we have been plagued by poor quality cores. THe best cores are from Japan but they wont talk to us unless we are talking about an order qty in he 1000s. So Im still looking for good quality cores. Next is siting and winding them by hand in diffirent wire gauges from 32 to 46 and diffirent combinations for primary and secondry. 1500 turns on a tiny bobin can you say bleeding fingers lol.
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