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AFR's vs rpm... And timing

Old 03-14-2008, 05:49 PM
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Default AFR's vs rpm... And timing

So I got my civic tuned last week. Its a stock d16z9 (same as d16z6) with a saab t3, log mani, fmic, blah blah, the usual stuff. I use crome free, freelog and a lc-1 wb. At the dyno we mostly tuned the boost part, and made sure there was no knock (dont have money to sit on the dyno tuning all part throttle maps). I have tuned most of the low cam part throttle myself, around 14.5-15 at cruise, rising ut to about 12 into boost transition. However the high cam part throttle maps are pig rich (mostly 11's, but also even 10's). I did most of the tuning in the low cam maps ust by adjusting the offset, so I wonder why the high cam maps are so rich? Are they supposed to be this way? All I can find when I search is AFR vs MAP never anything about AFR vs rpm. Am I blind, or is it just a dumb question? Should the AFR be the same at every rpm through the whole column?

Another thing that makes me wonder a bit is that we detected a slight trace of knock at 10 psi at the first pull with my basemap. I had pulled 1.1* per psi, so I was at 16* at redline. AFR were good, maybe a bit on the rich side, about 11. So we pulled 3* through the whole map, and the knock was gone, the power still the same. We pulled another 3*, and I had lost a whp or two, so we left it there, thought it should be on the safe side of the flat spot. I come home and take a look at some of the bins at xenocron, and I have 6* less timing than the most conservative map I can find. WTF? Are there so much difference between engines, or are there something weird going on? I set my base timing before I went to the tuner, so it should be ok. Is this ok, or should I start worrying about my valves?
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

i have not tuned a cr but am somewhat knowledgeable in the theory. you don't do arf vs rpm because that doesn't make sence because at the same rpms you can have your throttle open a lot or a little. the map uses your pressure and the temp of that air to figure out exactly how much air is there.
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Old 03-15-2008, 09:54 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

OK, thanks. I'll lean the high cam par throttle some. Any comments about the timing?
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

Originally Posted by confUsed
and I have 6* less timing than the most conservative map I can find. WTF?
if you set your base timing correctly, then something is off...else it sounds like you did what was right remove timing and watch power levels.

how were you actually detecting knock?
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

The tuner had some kind of electroinic detcan, dont know the brand. He has a very good name in the business here, so I trust him that he knows what a knock sounds like. But I guess I wasted my money anyway if something is off Could a bad tank of gas cause this? Because I dont think many people tank the higher octane stuff here in the winter, so the gas might be old or full of water from condensation...?
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:49 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

mid 11's on NA pistons is where you want to be typically, 10's are too much.
buy and EGT gauge and set the timing yourself. dyno's do not come close to loading an engine like moving on the road will. If you're boarderline on a dyno, you'll be past it on the road.
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

Originally Posted by Toysrme
mid 11's on NA pistons is where you want to be typically, 10's are too much.
buy and EGT gauge and set the timing yourself. dyno's do not come close to loading an engine like moving on the road will. If you're boarderline on a dyno, you'll be past it on the road.
I skimmed over the post and I couldn't even figure what you are talking about in your first statement. As for an EGT, a TurboXS KnockLite would be a better investment than a EGT gauge in my opinion. It's a shame no one has come up with an inexpensive knock detection device yet like the Knock Lite.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:05 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

Originally Posted by Toysrme
mid 11's on NA pistons is where you want to be typically, 10's are too much.
buy and EGT gauge and set the timing yourself. dyno's do not come close to loading an engine like moving on the road will. If you're boarderline on a dyno, you'll be past it on the road.
Every word of this is completely incorrect...
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

Toysrme: I dont think I will be so long in constant boost on the road as I was at the dyno, so I dont know what you mean? And I doubt its hurting anything to be at low 11's/high 10's (not so sure, though). Thought you needed like 9's to start worry about bore wash? I think most subaru guys around here tune to low 10's without problems with bore wash.

Anyway, when I get time I'll double check everything, make a cheapy DIY detcan and just try it myself. Might as well start now with my stock engine. I was thinking about using a inductive clamp and try out the powerdyn software as well. http://jcdperformance.free.fr/ . Supposedly lots of people run it with very good results... I dont know (or care) about the whp part, but it looks like it can be accurate enough to compare torque graphs for tuning timing.

IDK, just need to figure out a way to tune this thing safely without having to go to the dyno every time...
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:03 AM
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Default Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing

Originally Posted by xenocron
Every word of this is completely incorrect...
why dont you correct it then and not just point it out ??
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