AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

So I got my civic tuned last week. Its a stock d16z9 (same as d16z6) with a saab t3, log mani, fmic, blah blah, the usual stuff. I use crome free, freelog and a lc-1 wb. At the dyno we mostly tuned the boost part, and made sure there was no knock (dont have money to sit on the dyno tuning all part throttle maps). I have tuned most of the low cam part throttle myself, around 14.5-15 at cruise, rising ut to about 12 into boost transition. However the high cam part throttle maps are pig rich (mostly 11's, but also even 10's). I did most of the tuning in the low cam maps ust by adjusting the offset, so I wonder why the high cam maps are so rich? Are they supposed to be this way? All I can find when I search is AFR vs MAP never anything about AFR vs rpm. Am I blind, or is it just a dumb question? Should the AFR be the same at every rpm through the whole column?

Another thing that makes me wonder a bit is that we detected a slight trace of knock at 10 psi at the first pull with my basemap. I had pulled 1.1* per psi, so I was at 16* at redline. AFR were good, maybe a bit on the rich side, about 11. So we pulled 3* through the whole map, and the knock was gone, the power still the same. We pulled another 3*, and I had lost a whp or two, so we left it there, thought it should be on the safe side of the flat spot. I come home and take a look at some of the bins at xenocron, and I have 6* less timing than the most conservative map I can find. WTF? Are there so much difference between engines, or are there something weird going on? I set my base timing before I went to the tuner, so it should be ok. Is this ok, or should I start worrying about my valves?

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

i have not tuned a cr but am somewhat knowledgeable in the theory. you don't do arf vs rpm because that doesn't make sence because at the same rpms you can have your throttle open a lot or a little. the map uses your pressure and the temp of that air to figure out exactly how much air is there.

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

OK, thanks. I'll lean the high cam par throttle some. Any comments about the timing?

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

if you set your base timing correctly, then something is off...else it sounds like you did what was right remove timing and watch power levels.

how were you actually detecting knock?

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

The tuner had some kind of electroinic detcan, dont know the brand. He has a very good name in the business here, so I trust him that he knows what a knock sounds like. But I guess I wasted my money anyway if something is off >:( Could a bad tank of gas cause this? Because I dont think many people tank the higher octane stuff here in the winter, so the gas might be old or full of water from condensation...?

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

mid 11's on NA pistons is where you want to be typically, 10's are too much.
buy and EGT gauge and set the timing yourself. dyno's do not come close to loading an engine like moving on the road will. If you're boarderline on a dyno, you'll be past it on the road.

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

I skimmed over the post and I couldn't even figure what you are talking about in your first statement. As for an EGT, a TurboXS KnockLite would be a better investment than a EGT gauge in my opinion. It's a shame no one has come up with an inexpensive knock detection device yet like the Knock Lite.

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

Every word of this is completely incorrect...

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

Toysrme: I dont think I will be so long in constant boost on the road as I was at the dyno, so I dont know what you mean? And I doubt its hurting anything to be at low 11's/high 10's (not so sure, though). Thought you needed like 9's to start worry about bore wash? I think most subaru guys around here tune to low 10's without problems with bore wash.

Anyway, when I get time I'll double check everything, make a cheapy DIY detcan and just try it myself. Might as well start now with my stock engine. I was thinking about using a inductive clamp and try out the powerdyn software as well. http://jcdperformance.free.fr/ . Supposedly lots of people run it with very good results... I dont know (or care) about the whp part, but it looks like it can be accurate enough to compare torque graphs for tuning timing.

IDK, just need to figure out a way to tune this thing safely without having to go to the dyno every time...

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

why dont you correct it then and not just point it out ??

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

You have turned into a mighty box of douche...

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

you should probably try and fined someone else to fallow around the internet. :1 :1

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

just take the opposite of what he said and then you would be right O0

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

check out http://www.viatrack.ca/ for a cheap knock detection solution i have one seems to work well Wes

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

does the knock light actually work? i posted up about it a while back (a year or more now) and no one seemed to have much of an answer for me. im about to start building my ls crx again and im looking to do it right this time instead of haggard ass half nigrig buncha ----.

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

Dude if the cars not getting hot, like in boost ect's doen't jump up over 205 or so your timinmg is probably ok. I'd say your base timing is just off somehow and your fine..Most of the cars ive tuned come to me with some chinese balancer pulley or something with no timing marks so I have no way of setting the base timing. I just tune the car and adjusting to where it needs to be.

As far as afr 10 in boost are rich but it's not that critical. On a few really wore out engines Ive had to richen them up that much in boost at high rpm and full boost just to keep them from knocking.

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

I just got the car back in my garage now, so I'll go doublecheck basetiming. And I remember now that I was thinking about milling the head 1mm when I did the rebuild to bump compression, but I cant remember if I ended up doing it or not. More compression = more retard, right?

I have never heard knock myself, but as I understand knock sounds different from engine to engine. I dont think I would trust a simple light that claims it detects all knock from every motor. That just doesnt sound right to me.

Dont know my EGT's, only thing I know is that the manifold started to get red in the end of the run... I just dont have the money for an egt gauge now.

Edit:
Just saw now that you were talking about eCt's :) On the dyno, it would overheat a little (with the tiny, stock radiator) after doing a couple of wot pulls in a row, I saw 215 once. On the road with lots of air its rock solid at 195.

Re: AFR's vs rpm... And timing
 

Okey, now I dont know what the hell is going on here.

Triple checked base timing - good
Checked compression - good
Measured my head - close to stock specs (I have close to stock compression)
Freelog reads the same timing advance as the tables in the crome bin

So I thought ---- it and went to a trackday at a local circuit track. My manifold cracked after about 40 minutes of track time. Not at the welds, but the pipe itself (2mm walls, mild steel). I welded it up and made some braces and went to another trackday, and my manifold cracked again at another place. The collector has also started deforming, looks like the wall is made of something really soft and just gives in for the pressure. So I guess my EGT are sky high (as expected with 11 degrees timing @ 11psi).

So today I made a det can and tried to run the timing from my basemap (16 degrees at 11 psi, should be pretty conservative). I couldn't hear any detonation during a WOT 3rd gear pull (turned off the ignition right before rev limit), but when I checked my plugs it was gray and there were lots of small greyish dots on it. Guess my det can sucks, lol. So went back to the old map with 11 degrees @ 11psi and did a 3rd gear pull, and my plugs still looks greyish, but without the dots. My wideband reads pig rich (in the 10s when in boost), and the wideband at the tuner had the same reading.

So, anyone know whats going on, and how to get a car thats running as it should?