Recommended reading - a teaser.
10-06-2005, 01:12 AM
#1
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Recommended reading - a teaser.
Here's a snippet of Robert "Mean Gringo Bob" Harris ranting about modern engineering texts. Good for a laugh, and perspective.
Originally Posted by Mean Gringo Bob
>>Get a pre 1980 text by Obert, Heldt, Maleev, Lichty etc. Then compare
>>it to the expensive useless crap available now.
>>
>>I have an aerospace engineering background and I expect the book to have
>>some knowledge in it. The current crap is a major disservice to any
>>student who is forced to purchase it. Its even crap for reference. I
>>still have some of my Electrical Engineering texts and manuals. Unlike
>>this fecal matter, they actually contained useable data and tables.
>>
>>If you want to understand the basics of how to build a diesel or
>>gasoline engine, perhaps the best two books are by Heldt. "High Speed
>>Combustion Engine" and "High Speed Diesel Engines". About 800 and about
>>450 pages of illustrations, description and design data. Written for
>>the trade and generally required references. Both pre computer, where
>>the author had to explain his material in English ( not the current
>>French fried pseudo scientific ebonics ) such that the readers could
>>actually use the material.
>>
>>For example, to understand basic air flow in an internal combustion
>>engine, my "Gas Flow in the Internal Combustion Engine" by Annand and
>>Roe uses 218 pages including appendix's to cover it. My "Scientific
>>Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems" Third Edition Phillip H. Smith and
>>John C Morrison has 273 pages. These books do not even begin to fully
>>cover the material - yet the required reading trash book covers it in a
>>few pages of formulae. These early works reference you to "Fundamentals
>>Of Hydro and Aeromechanics" by Pranddtl and Tietjens. Its about 270
>>pages of fluid flow calculus. Lectures given by Prandtl in the mid
>>thirties time frame. BTW, one of the original scientists in this area.
>>
>>A basic overview book of the design and construction of engines
>>"Advanced Engine Technology" by Heinz Heisler takes almost 800 pages to
>>give the basics of design of an Internal Combustion Engine - pre
>>computer crap. Its actually readable and usable as a reference.
>>
>>My Korean War US Naval Academy Undergraduate Course Book "Fundamentals
>>of Internal Combustion Engines as applied to Reciprocating, Gas Turbine
>>and Jet Propulsion Power Plants" is over 800 pages and was both a
>>reference and a text book for USN Academy undergraduates in Mechanical
>>Engineering.
>>
>>In 1956, part of mechanical engineering texts for undergraduates at the
>>Naval Academy was "Introduction to the basic mechanisms" - 250 pages of
>>the basic mechanical engineers toolbox. Things actually laid out for
>>inspection and knowledge.
>>
>>The supercharging and turbocharging section of these worthless pieces of
>>feces is about 20 pages. A standard engineering text "Supercharging the
>>Internal Combustion Engine" by Vincent 1948 is over 300 pages of actual
>>usable information. Don't forget Schweitzer's "Scavenging of a two
>>stroke cycle diesel Engine" 1949. Its 250 pages plus charts etc about
>>the air flow in a diesel is about 10 times the total coverage of the
>>book's on diesels.
>>
>>A little work by Julius Mackerle "Air Cooled Motor Engines" early 50's
>>by the Man Dr Porsche apprenticed under to learn engine design is about
>>450+ pages of usable information. Including how to use exhaust ejectors
>>to eliminate air cooling fans.
>>
>>Finally, for the journeyman mechanic, is the A.W. Judges "Automotive and
>>Aircraft Engines in theory and experiment" with 324 illustrations and
>>115 tables - about 650 pages published in 1921. By the man who wrote
>>all of the books that became condensed into the Motor Manual. Not even
>>for college students.
>>
>>And this is just scratching the surface of what used to be available and
>>actually taught to engineering students and those that could actually
>>read non comic books.
>>
>>Any of these text's and hundreds of others are chocked full of data.
>>When I took my engineering courses in the seventies, you were expected
>>to be aware of both the class's and the texts.
>>
>>Based on these texts, I guess the current curriculum is "Desktop Dyno
>>and it use in Engine Design". When steam power is "old obsolete
>>technology of no interest except to certain specialties" when talking
>>about basic cycles, vapor cycles are not taught because they are not
>>needed for understanding. When showing a couple of pictures of old
>>engines sums up 150 years of design development. If the writing was
>>done by an average junior high student in the mid west in the early
>>sixties, he would have failed the paper.
>>
>>Something tells me that within these poor attempts, there must be usable
>>information that can be extracted. After I get through projectile
>>vomiting over the format and scarcity useable material, perhaps I should
>>do some ecstasy and see if they make sense.
>>it to the expensive useless crap available now.
>>
>>I have an aerospace engineering background and I expect the book to have
>>some knowledge in it. The current crap is a major disservice to any
>>student who is forced to purchase it. Its even crap for reference. I
>>still have some of my Electrical Engineering texts and manuals. Unlike
>>this fecal matter, they actually contained useable data and tables.
>>
>>If you want to understand the basics of how to build a diesel or
>>gasoline engine, perhaps the best two books are by Heldt. "High Speed
>>Combustion Engine" and "High Speed Diesel Engines". About 800 and about
>>450 pages of illustrations, description and design data. Written for
>>the trade and generally required references. Both pre computer, where
>>the author had to explain his material in English ( not the current
>>French fried pseudo scientific ebonics ) such that the readers could
>>actually use the material.
>>
>>For example, to understand basic air flow in an internal combustion
>>engine, my "Gas Flow in the Internal Combustion Engine" by Annand and
>>Roe uses 218 pages including appendix's to cover it. My "Scientific
>>Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems" Third Edition Phillip H. Smith and
>>John C Morrison has 273 pages. These books do not even begin to fully
>>cover the material - yet the required reading trash book covers it in a
>>few pages of formulae. These early works reference you to "Fundamentals
>>Of Hydro and Aeromechanics" by Pranddtl and Tietjens. Its about 270
>>pages of fluid flow calculus. Lectures given by Prandtl in the mid
>>thirties time frame. BTW, one of the original scientists in this area.
>>
>>A basic overview book of the design and construction of engines
>>"Advanced Engine Technology" by Heinz Heisler takes almost 800 pages to
>>give the basics of design of an Internal Combustion Engine - pre
>>computer crap. Its actually readable and usable as a reference.
>>
>>My Korean War US Naval Academy Undergraduate Course Book "Fundamentals
>>of Internal Combustion Engines as applied to Reciprocating, Gas Turbine
>>and Jet Propulsion Power Plants" is over 800 pages and was both a
>>reference and a text book for USN Academy undergraduates in Mechanical
>>Engineering.
>>
>>In 1956, part of mechanical engineering texts for undergraduates at the
>>Naval Academy was "Introduction to the basic mechanisms" - 250 pages of
>>the basic mechanical engineers toolbox. Things actually laid out for
>>inspection and knowledge.
>>
>>The supercharging and turbocharging section of these worthless pieces of
>>feces is about 20 pages. A standard engineering text "Supercharging the
>>Internal Combustion Engine" by Vincent 1948 is over 300 pages of actual
>>usable information. Don't forget Schweitzer's "Scavenging of a two
>>stroke cycle diesel Engine" 1949. Its 250 pages plus charts etc about
>>the air flow in a diesel is about 10 times the total coverage of the
>>book's on diesels.
>>
>>A little work by Julius Mackerle "Air Cooled Motor Engines" early 50's
>>by the Man Dr Porsche apprenticed under to learn engine design is about
>>450+ pages of usable information. Including how to use exhaust ejectors
>>to eliminate air cooling fans.
>>
>>Finally, for the journeyman mechanic, is the A.W. Judges "Automotive and
>>Aircraft Engines in theory and experiment" with 324 illustrations and
>>115 tables - about 650 pages published in 1921. By the man who wrote
>>all of the books that became condensed into the Motor Manual. Not even
>>for college students.
>>
>>And this is just scratching the surface of what used to be available and
>>actually taught to engineering students and those that could actually
>>read non comic books.
>>
>>Any of these text's and hundreds of others are chocked full of data.
>>When I took my engineering courses in the seventies, you were expected
>>to be aware of both the class's and the texts.
>>
>>Based on these texts, I guess the current curriculum is "Desktop Dyno
>>and it use in Engine Design". When steam power is "old obsolete
>>technology of no interest except to certain specialties" when talking
>>about basic cycles, vapor cycles are not taught because they are not
>>needed for understanding. When showing a couple of pictures of old
>>engines sums up 150 years of design development. If the writing was
>>done by an average junior high student in the mid west in the early
>>sixties, he would have failed the paper.
>>
>>Something tells me that within these poor attempts, there must be usable
>>information that can be extracted. After I get through projectile
>>vomiting over the format and scarcity useable material, perhaps I should
>>do some ecstasy and see if they make sense.
10-08-2005, 01:34 AM
#4
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 148
Re: Recommended reading - a teaser.
being a mechanical and aerospace engineering student myself, i can see what hes saying, but i think hes missing a key fact, computers and calculators. back then they didnt have them, or were scarce. we dont need all the tables if you can just calculate it in the palm of your hand. also it is my belief that people today are more intelligent then people were 50 years ago. maybe engineering students today dont need everything spelled out as they did 50 years ago, just a guess.
but my thermodynamics book is very much in depth with tables and such, but thats because theres not really a way to calculate all the needed values, like specific heats, specific volumes, ect for any pressure, temperature and phase. you need empirical data for that.
but my thermodynamics book is very much in depth with tables and such, but thats because theres not really a way to calculate all the needed values, like specific heats, specific volumes, ect for any pressure, temperature and phase. you need empirical data for that.
10-10-2005, 08:41 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Recommended reading - a teaser.
Originally Posted by gsrcrxsi
being a mechanical and aerospace engineering student myself, i can see what hes saying, but i think hes missing a key fact, computers and calculators. back then they didnt have them, or were scarce. we dont need all the tables if you can just calculate it in the palm of your hand. also it is my belief that people today are more intelligent then people were 50 years ago. maybe engineering students today dont need everything spelled out as they did 50 years ago, just a guess.
Bob knows computers, and is not discounting them. What he is discounting is the modern trend to shut down when confronted with too much information. His blurby above is a rant about condensing 400 pages that scratch the surface into a ten page chapter that is "the holy gospel and all you need to know." Mototune guy has a funny little story about Typical Engineering Students and how they react to his small port theory. He's wrong! They know about Nozzle Effect(tm)!
And people today are stupider than they were 50 years ago. 50 years ago was when America ruled supreme, had an excellent work ethic, and being an Engineer meant something. Now a days, being an engineer is working as one for two years, then trying like hell to make middle management and higher pay scales before you know anything about your job. Large portions of American Engineering is now done overseas by people with work ethic, for a fraction of what today's engineer gets paid. America is not so great any more, start paying attention to the next 10-15 years, we'll drop from "world leader" to top 10. Pay close attention to the Chinese - land of labor.
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