Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
10-23-2007, 10:30 PM
#61
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Originally Posted by chris
cars just dont spike peak #'s especially with all motor cars. Honda was smart hence why b16a got itr gearing back in 1989. Fixes the torqueless wonder. Im done I lived it saw that it worked. Make a living at it if thats not enough then your right.
I am just trying to figure out what we are doing wrong. It is just really hard for me to believe that making 190 WHP on a NA B16 is that easy.
10-23-2007, 10:44 PM
#62
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Let's tie this thread up in a neat little bundle of string:
So the quality of those two grounds skew what the sensor reads, while the load of the wideband competes with the ECU across a compromised ground. Not ideal.
The engine IS ground. The negative terminal of the battery is not, the ECU harness is not, the ground wire bolted between your taillights is not. Run all your tuning gear to ground, and if the car acts ------- wierd and you don't get intelligent results when you try to tune than you have to fix the ECU/system grounds so that you can tune it. It sucks for most mechanical minded people (insert 99.7% of car enthusiasts here) as electricity doesn't make sense unless you've gone ninja on the subject and you visually can't see/picture what is going on.
I really don't think we need to use an untunable car as a poster child for whether or not AEBS manis work well.
Blundar turned me onto them, holy ---- he was right (as usual), then next thing I know they are apparently made by Pro Products, holy ---- their stuff doesn't suck, and then chris walks in and asserts they are good. /thread, because that is a three way gangbang of correctness.
No, because the plenum is larger in diameter than any throttle body. Which doesn't matter because plenum size is more of a dynamic factor, although it does have an effect. Look at the IM entry to the port, the length and shape of the port itself, bowl, shape of the backside of the valve, and the radius on the valveseat. Confused? Now you know why good head porters are generally bright guys.
It's real easy to tell when you have a restriction in your TB sizing, guys; the engine draws a small vacuum at WOT, in the upper rpms. If you get any vacuum then the TB is too small. A few hp of throttling (heh) can't always be detected by a service grade vacuum/boost gauge, but datalogs tell all down to a few mBar.
Ah, that explains it. You Cali boys shipped all your auto B16's with their worthless cams to the East coast. 
The problem isn't unported PR3 castings as PR3 ports are too large and hogged out and kill off low and midrange power... I've got $5 that says it's auto B16 cams.
Well, retard, since you set yourself up for it... :P
The air goes into the plenum and hits what are the 4, 3, 2, 1 runners in order. There are a lot of factors that go into how much air goes into each runner, I'll list them off and let you visualise each in turn. I deal with this ---- EVERY time I tune a car and check plugs to set individual cylinder fuel and ignition trims... btw, stock B16 IM sucks worse than anything I've ever seen except maybe a D15 IM. Anyway:
- How big the plenum is dictates if there is available air to evenly distribute to each runner. Too-small plenums can starve the last (#1) runner.
- How big the TB/how big the airmass going through the TB dicates the velocity the air enters the plenum, which in extreme (yet common) situations can carry it past the first (#4) runner and shoot it toward the last (#1) runner.
- How healthy each cylinder is dictates how much it sucks air into each runner
- Bunch of other stuff. Fist your mother, I'm getting sick of typing.
There have been a bunch of tricks over the years to balance flow:
- Angling TB entry into the plenum to shoot air across the back of a stock/small plenum so it reaches the last (#1) runner... I've also seen this done poorly, or on a big plenum aftermarket unit, and it results in overfeeding #1 as boost goes up - the engine in question had three good pistons and one that had rings and ring lands shattered in a manner I've not seen since. 450 whp setup and it had broken the rings themselves into 1/8" to 1/4" bits, some of which had tuned vertically in the mashed together twisted ruin of what used to be ringlands. Crazy ---- to look at.
- Flowbenching the IM and then porting each runner and runner entry to balance things out. The guy who did this also flowed his injectors and matched them to which runner they fed fuel to. Mike Sitar = the man, he's built reliable driven-to-the-track-for-multiple-season 9 second cars for $3000 total.
- Let's not even touch on trying to shape plenum and target plenum size for the desired power level correctly the first time around.
Blah. I can't state enough times how vital it is that you fist your mother, QikFag.
Originally Posted by snm95ls
I use an LC-1. The analogue ground is grounded to the sensor ground at the ECU. The system ground is grounded at the main ECU power ground.
The engine IS ground. The negative terminal of the battery is not, the ECU harness is not, the ground wire bolted between your taillights is not. Run all your tuning gear to ground, and if the car acts ------- wierd and you don't get intelligent results when you try to tune than you have to fix the ECU/system grounds so that you can tune it. It sucks for most mechanical minded people (insert 99.7% of car enthusiasts here) as electricity doesn't make sense unless you've gone ninja on the subject and you visually can't see/picture what is going on.
Originally Posted by snm95ls
How is using a bigger TB is going to bring back all of the lost torque with the AEBS.
Blundar turned me onto them, holy ---- he was right (as usual), then next thing I know they are apparently made by Pro Products, holy ---- their stuff doesn't suck, and then chris walks in and asserts they are good. /thread, because that is a three way gangbang of correctness.
Originally Posted by dirtygsr94
ya but wouldnt that (huge TB) hurt your flow velocity in midrange and bottom end power.
It's real easy to tell when you have a restriction in your TB sizing, guys; the engine draws a small vacuum at WOT, in the upper rpms. If you get any vacuum then the TB is too small. A few hp of throttling (heh) can't always be detected by a service grade vacuum/boost gauge, but datalogs tell all down to a few mBar.
Originally Posted by chris
what dohc vtec car have you been in that dies at 7500 none. Stock b16a's Im sorry like 8500 and with some basic port work/larger tb and tuning will like 9k all day long on stock cams.
The problem isn't unported PR3 castings as PR3 ports are too large and hogged out and kill off low and midrange power... I've got $5 that says it's auto B16 cams.
Originally Posted by QikEnuF
Question on intake manifold design, might be retard, but...
Since the air goes into the plenum and hits what I assume are the 1,2,3,4 runners in the order, with 4 being at the back of the plenum, in order to help equalize air distribution, would it be beneficial to run a pipe with a bend within the plenum to feed air into the rear(?) runners? Just random thinking..
Since the air goes into the plenum and hits what I assume are the 1,2,3,4 runners in the order, with 4 being at the back of the plenum, in order to help equalize air distribution, would it be beneficial to run a pipe with a bend within the plenum to feed air into the rear(?) runners? Just random thinking..
The air goes into the plenum and hits what are the 4, 3, 2, 1 runners in order. There are a lot of factors that go into how much air goes into each runner, I'll list them off and let you visualise each in turn. I deal with this ---- EVERY time I tune a car and check plugs to set individual cylinder fuel and ignition trims... btw, stock B16 IM sucks worse than anything I've ever seen except maybe a D15 IM. Anyway:
- How big the plenum is dictates if there is available air to evenly distribute to each runner. Too-small plenums can starve the last (#1) runner.
- How big the TB/how big the airmass going through the TB dicates the velocity the air enters the plenum, which in extreme (yet common) situations can carry it past the first (#4) runner and shoot it toward the last (#1) runner.
- How healthy each cylinder is dictates how much it sucks air into each runner
- Bunch of other stuff. Fist your mother, I'm getting sick of typing.
There have been a bunch of tricks over the years to balance flow:
- Angling TB entry into the plenum to shoot air across the back of a stock/small plenum so it reaches the last (#1) runner... I've also seen this done poorly, or on a big plenum aftermarket unit, and it results in overfeeding #1 as boost goes up - the engine in question had three good pistons and one that had rings and ring lands shattered in a manner I've not seen since. 450 whp setup and it had broken the rings themselves into 1/8" to 1/4" bits, some of which had tuned vertically in the mashed together twisted ruin of what used to be ringlands. Crazy ---- to look at.
- Flowbenching the IM and then porting each runner and runner entry to balance things out. The guy who did this also flowed his injectors and matched them to which runner they fed fuel to. Mike Sitar = the man, he's built reliable driven-to-the-track-for-multiple-season 9 second cars for $3000 total.
- Let's not even touch on trying to shape plenum and target plenum size for the desired power level correctly the first time around.
Blah. I can't state enough times how vital it is that you fist your mother, QikFag.
10-23-2007, 10:52 PM
#63
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,808
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Okay so I had the runner order reverse :1
How's the Miata project looking, Josephina...
Individual porting work on each runner sounds like an easier job than cutting an intake manifold and putting my retard tube to help the rear cylinders. So I assume cylinders 1 and 2 are typically the most prone to running lean? I'm trying to learn ---- nignog
How's the Miata project looking, Josephina...
Individual porting work on each runner sounds like an easier job than cutting an intake manifold and putting my retard tube to help the rear cylinders. So I assume cylinders 1 and 2 are typically the most prone to running lean? I'm trying to learn ---- nignog
10-23-2007, 10:54 PM
#64
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
Let's tie this thread up in a neat little bundle of string:
So the quality of those two grounds skew what the sensor reads, while the load of the wideband competes with the ECU across a compromised ground. Not ideal.
The engine IS ground. The negative terminal of the battery is not, the ECU harness is not, the ground wire bolted between your taillights is not. Run all your tuning gear to ground, and if the car acts ------- wierd and you don't get intelligent results when you try to tune than you have to fix the ECU/system grounds so that you can tune it. It sucks for most mechanical minded people (insert 99.7% of car enthusiasts here) as electricity doesn't make sense unless you've gone ninja on the subject and you visually can't see/picture what is going on.
I really don't think we need to use an untunable car as a poster child for whether or not AEBS manis work well.
Blundar turned me onto them, holy ---- he was right (as usual), then next thing I know they are apparently made by Pro Products, holy ---- their stuff doesn't suck, and then chris walks in and asserts they are good. /thread, because that is a three way gangbang of correctness.
So the quality of those two grounds skew what the sensor reads, while the load of the wideband competes with the ECU across a compromised ground. Not ideal.
The engine IS ground. The negative terminal of the battery is not, the ECU harness is not, the ground wire bolted between your taillights is not. Run all your tuning gear to ground, and if the car acts ------- wierd and you don't get intelligent results when you try to tune than you have to fix the ECU/system grounds so that you can tune it. It sucks for most mechanical minded people (insert 99.7% of car enthusiasts here) as electricity doesn't make sense unless you've gone ninja on the subject and you visually can't see/picture what is going on.
I really don't think we need to use an untunable car as a poster child for whether or not AEBS manis work well.
Blundar turned me onto them, holy ---- he was right (as usual), then next thing I know they are apparently made by Pro Products, holy ---- their stuff doesn't suck, and then chris walks in and asserts they are good. /thread, because that is a three way gangbang of correctness.
Just a question about the LC-1.
How will the ground issue skew the digital data?
Meh, I guess I need to refresh my understanding of how the O2 circuit actually function electrically.
10-23-2007, 11:04 PM
#65
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 0
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Qik, it really depends on the setup, and it varies a LOT. If I tried to sum up what I think is a normal - good luck finding many of them - setup: #4 runs barely cooler than all the others, #3 looks like it's running hotter as boost goes up, so I add in more fuel and yank timing there. Keep in mind that I evaluate this based on reading plugs, so consider that #2 and #3 are thermally landlocked and #3 tends to run noticeably hotter than any of the other cyls when I make these statements. Any extra fuel I throw at a particular cyl is there to cool it; not always due to flow, but when flow imbalance rears it's head it's pretty obvious.
When it can't correctly control the ion pump in the sensor because the blue ground wire's current has a shitty ground connection that has to fight the ECU's current for the same shitty ground path. Fun fun. Klaus, who made your wideband, has a number of interesting tech blurbs available for download on his site about grounds and their importance. He's a bright guy, you should pay attention to what he has to say. I'm not trying to be a smartass when i say that as there is, admittedly, a LOT of ---- on their site if you dig at it.
Originally Posted by snm95ls
Just a question about the LC-1.
How will the ground issue skew the digital data?
How will the ground issue skew the digital data?
10-23-2007, 11:11 PM
#66
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Originally Posted by Joseph Davis
When it can't correctly control the ion pump in the sensor because the blue ground wire's current has a shitty ground connection that has to fight the ECU's current for the same shitty ground path. Fun fun. Klaus, who made your wideband, has a number of interesting tech blurbs available for download on his site about grounds and their importance. He's a bright guy, you should pay attention to what he has to say. I'm not trying to be a smartass when i say that as there is, admittedly, a LOT of ---- on their site if you dig at it.
Yeah, I just re-read the write up on their site. :P
I know very well that Klaus knows his ----. That is a big part of the reason that I choose to use Innovate's products.
10-24-2007, 12:25 AM
#69
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 0
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Jd when I was just at my shop I was thinking about the dyno posted and I started really thinking when I have seen a b16a fall face first at mid 7k oh ya the stepchild auto b16a motor. Those cams are total trash and should be swapped out for sir2 or any b16a3/2 5 spd cams before installing the motor.
Yes making 190 whp on an all motor b16a stock bottom end is that easy. If i was to redo that set up done in 2001 Im confident I could achieve close to 210 with a typhoon manifold and all the other nice goodies out in the world. The tuning on that motor was a mugen generic chip it was 2001 and a adjustable fpr and stock 240 injectors. Who knows where the timing was most likely with most of those programs around 30 which I have found to be the polar opposite of what works.
Yes making 190 whp on an all motor b16a stock bottom end is that easy. If i was to redo that set up done in 2001 Im confident I could achieve close to 210 with a typhoon manifold and all the other nice goodies out in the world. The tuning on that motor was a mugen generic chip it was 2001 and a adjustable fpr and stock 240 injectors. Who knows where the timing was most likely with most of those programs around 30 which I have found to be the polar opposite of what works.
10-24-2007, 12:42 AM
#70
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
Re: Best Aftermarket Intake Manifold B-Series???
Originally Posted by chris
Jd when I was just at my shop I was thinking about the dyno posted and I started really thinking when I have seen a b16a fall face first at mid 7k oh ya the stepchild auto b16a motor. Those cams are total trash and should be swapped out for sir2 or any b16a3/2 5 spd cams before installing the motor.
Yes making 190 whp on an all motor b16a stock bottom end is that easy. If i was to redo that set up done in 2001 Im confident I could achieve close to 210 with a typhoon manifold and all the other nice goodies out in the world. The tuning on that motor was a mugen generic chip it was 2001 and a adjustable fpr and stock 240 injectors. Who knows where the timing was most likely with most of those programs around 30 which I have found to be the polar opposite of what works.
Yes making 190 whp on an all motor b16a stock bottom end is that easy. If i was to redo that set up done in 2001 Im confident I could achieve close to 210 with a typhoon manifold and all the other nice goodies out in the world. The tuning on that motor was a mugen generic chip it was 2001 and a adjustable fpr and stock 240 injectors. Who knows where the timing was most likely with most of those programs around 30 which I have found to be the polar opposite of what works.
Hey Chris, The dyno I posted, if that is the one you are referring to, is of my current setup. The cams are not the B16 Auto cams, that is unless the B16 auto cams have the same markings as the earlier ITR cams.
I'd ask what timing you have found to work well, but I know most guys don't like to divulge that info.
