turbo valvetrain?
 

im in the process of sourcing the rest of the parts i need to complete building my b18c1 to handle more boost. iam going to be using forged rods and pistons with arp rod bolts in my setup. i would like to be able to rev the car to around 9,000 rpm after iam finished. my question is should i have to change out my valvetrain to do this with the stock set of cams?

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

yes

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

just wondering why if im not changing the cam size i know that the rpm will have an effect but why exactly will it casue the valves to not work right?

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

I'm no valve expert but I do know that the stock valvetrain is only designed to handle the stock rev limit. If you rev past that you won't make anymore power and the valves will probably just float anyway.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

i was thinking the same thing about float i just wasnt sure if the valvetrain could support some extra rpms i know its probably out of the cams efficency but with it being boosted it still feels like it wants to pull past 8200 right now. i was thinking maybe most people didnt do it because of weak rod bolts.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

run that ---- till it breaks, then you will know

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

I would just keep the rev limiter where it's at, no use in spending that much more $$$ for 800 extra rpm.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

lol coming from a guy named toda ..haha

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

and an ebay knock off wheel for an avatar.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

hate hate hate... jk but i was still wondering if anyone has done this

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

run it till it breaks?

local guy built his turbo motor, used the head off his old NA motor or someshit that had seen revs in the 9k range with no problems... but with 20psi of boost and stock revlimit it ended up dropping a valve and nukin the hold motor...

here is something to think about: with a boosted motor there is X about of boost pressure pushing down on the head of that valve now that wasnt there with an NA application. so thats ~20psi of spring pressure that needs to be made up for. if its not then you could float the valves at a lower engine speed, bending valves, breaking them, and droppin them onto the pistons...

you can pick up a set of nice springs/retainers for like 225-300bucks. they will work fine with stock or aftermarket cams... or you can drop a valve on a B18C and be out several thousand dollars...your call...

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

good point man, who makes a good trusted valvetrain for cheap then? ive seen skank2 and crower any sleeper sets guys are using that may be a lilttle cheaper.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Rocket Motorsports :y

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

solid O0

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Wow, tech in this thread is ------- scary. :l

NA cars like super light springs, but the spring has to be designed to follow the cam @ higher rpm. Despite what some people think, this has nothing to do with spring stiffness. Turbo cars like stuff springs, especially on the exhaust side. You can get away with stock springs and maybe a couple hundred extra rpms on a medium boost car, but not 9K. Also, if you aren't pushing a good bit of boost on a good sized compressor I doubt there is power above 8K-ish... but, as boost goes up a cam's powerband goes up.


Crower is pricey, and I don't care for how they trashed a lot of B-series engine with cams that broke due to ramp angle design problems, with zero warranty on the cam much less the engine, and Crower kept selling their cams anyway when they knew they were junk. Skank2 is middle of the road stuff, if the price is right and you can find out any specs on the springs go for it.

Rocket Motorsports springs are awesome low rate NA units... for all the turbo stuff Rocket Martin recommended Supertech stuff. Supertech has three springrates available for B-series, unless they've changed their lineup in the last 6 months. Go with their 85 lb/in springs, they are middle of the road stiffness AND a bump up from stock, should do you fine to 9K with a good powerband in the 300+ whp range. If you want past 9K go 100-110 lb/in springs and aftermarket valves and expect cams to last 500 miles, and all-around engine life to be shorter.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

i just installed some Rocket springs in an NA car and they where rated at 95lbs ???


you serious about the mileage? i plan on building my turbo motor to make peak power around 9200-9500rpms... the plan was to run the RM springs and probably the Mazworx V1 turbo cams... thoughts?

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

95lbs, no ----? These aren't the single springs, are they? :-\

I'm really not up on cam selection, to be honest. Evans had so much luck running stock GSR/ITR cams in the 9000-9500 rpm range I can't see the expense of anything else. Especially when they become consumables with the high rate springs.

A caveat, 95lb/in is about what Trav-ASS' Ferrea's are rated at. He has killed B16, GSR, and Rocket M20 exhaust cam VTEC lobes. The problem is a combination of spring stiffness, high rpm, and the oil supply has turned to ---- between removing all sulfur and zinc compounds from most oils. There is a big jump in wear going from 9000 to 9500, and beyond 9500 it gets silly. The GSR cam lasted 1200 miles of 9000-9500, the Rocket 500 when he was spinning to a consistent 9700 and all the car saw was beating. There is an off chance the problem is in his cylinder head, but we changed rocker shafts, rocker arms, and upgraded to GSR LMAs with the Rocket cams... AND high spring pressure high rpm big power setups are known to kill cams.

Aside from a couple RLZ NA cars (JDM ITR with stage 3's + valvetrain, and a 2.1 liter 85X92mm) I haven't touched many cars that spun to 9500+. Half of what I've tuned were taken to 9K, the ones spinning 9200+ I can count using both hands. I think I've seen enough to have a pretty good grasp on the situation, but 50% of what I'm saying came from other people; predominantly Rocket and a little from Brad Z. Both are people I trust to know what they are about, though.

I thought Rocket was out of the business? Or did he just ditch the m24x forum to exist in the real world?

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Rocket is still in business from what i know, i got those specs off M24x.com...

----...well i just installed a set of Crower 63402s with those springs... sounds like they are pretty stiff...and if Crowers are as brittle as im hearing.... :-X

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Last I checked Rocket hadn't logged in for 6 months. There was a "goodbye this is my last post" thread in the main forum, and most of the site looked dead.

Crower fixed the problem with their cams a couple years back. It was ramp angle, not brittle.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

these where used so im not sure how old they actually are.... they have a sick ass ramp too...

http://home.comcast.net/~turbohf/cams004.JPG

Rocket has changed his name on HT...and is posting again...

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Joel???

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Trav-ASS dropped a valve on his 2.0/VTEC, and he had springs/retainers. He also have Ferrea exhaust valves. And stock intake valves. Both intake faces dropped right off the stem on #2, toasted the head and holed the piston, didn't so much as scratch the bore. Craziest thing I've ever seen.

The Ferrea exhaust valve facess were slightly bent by the experience, but their stems were were true and the Ferrea retainers kept the intake stems from flying all over the place. With the valvecover off, spinning the engine, you'd think everything was fine. None of it bound up or the like.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

yeah

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Name isn't neccissarily related to the company.
::)
and those ebay knock offs are also $1200, although you don't care.
keep to the tech, don't turn HMT into H-T.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

alright so im still new to this valvetrain stuff but what ive got so far is that i can run around 85lb/in springs in my head for a red line good to around 9k with my stock gsr cams? i know the rev limit will be set as to where it will make power but assuming im running enough boost pressure with my 60/63 turbo and its still making power this will be good? also whats the difference in retainers what purpose do they serve (raise spring rates?) and could i just run new springs with stock retainers on a turbo setup stock cams and be able to potentially rev that high?

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

I really wish that Intrinsic would move their expertise into the B-series, even though the dinosaurs are on the verge of extinction. They had this huge description of how harmonics in the cam shaft cause irregular vibrations at higher RPM and how cryotreating the cams prevents these all the way to a 20k rpm rev range or something. That ---- is cool, because then we wouldnt have 85in/lbs wearing the cam lobe so crazy + super revvyness on a boosted motor. One thing to invest in is a set of quality keepers, I've had more friends drop valves due to broken keepers than floated springs, well those are the dual spring VW 16v motors though...

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

There might be some effect on harmonics after cryo treatment, I'd be really curious to read up on it, but that's not the problem. Or at least it isn't the biggest part of the problem.

Everyone running off the shelf oil on high pressure aftermarket springs, or unusually high lift cams, have been experiencing camshaft failure since all the high pressure lubricants have been removed for environmental reasons. Mike94se of all people, IIRC, has an account on bobtheoilguy's site to check up on the periodic oil assays as the petroleum guys have been playing games with blends for a hot minute now.

Back to the crankshaft harmonics dealio... I was under the impression all the top name engine builders agreed that stock B-series cranks were balanced to 10K from the factory. Just food for thought.

T0DA's a good dude, but... you saw my how to make a n00b post writeup? Yeah, I typed it up for him and sent it to him first. He has no excuse. :3

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

SM isn't all that great. And some resort to diesel oils for betters adds.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Any particular diesel oils on the el cheap tip, Mikey-san?

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Shell has a Rotella for Diesels that can be had at Wal-Mart. Also something called "Delo 400" that is supposed to be there, but I haven't seen it. Sex for flat-tappets


There's also a clearance oil "additive" that was tested on there (was in a pink bottle of some sort) called CD-2 Street legal. Doesn't make it a "extended OCI oil", but had good properties.

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

they have "DELO 400" at CSK Auto stores (Schucks, Checker, Kragan)..... but they are shitty stores and dont recommend going there unless you have to...

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

I think Murray's is in their cluster too

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

its true....forgot about them...

Re: turbo valvetrain?
 

Yes they are balanced, the Intrinsic guys were talking about something with aftermarket cams, still the abnormal wear would cause premature failure right?
Lemme see if I can get a link happening here
I should re-read it I don't remember alot of it.

http://www.intrinsicperformance.com/engineering.html

It's in there, kinda question and answer thing