Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

OK, I first want to start off by saying that I will be EXTREMELY grateful for all help you guys can give me. Also, before you ask, YES I did search the forum first to see if I could find the advice and answers I'm looking for and found lots of helpful stuff, but not enough. Besides, if I don't post my crazy ideas here then you wouldn't be able to help and/or flame me mercilessly...and what fun would that be?¿? ;D
I tend to be VERY long winded once I get started so I'll try to make it short and sweet and I'll fill in any blanks when you ask me.

So, why am I crazy? :S What I'm trying to do is backwards of the usual. Instead of building a turbo kit around the available compressors/turbines, I'm going to fabricate my own turbine and compressor and try and build it into an existing turbocharger! Now, I want you to bear with me on this. I know most of you are already getting ready to reply with "Why the hell would you do that?" or give me suggestions on what I should do instead...which normally would be appreciated...but not in this case. What makes this even stranger is that I'm also going TOTALLY backwards with this build cuz instead of looking for a turbo for my engine, I'm looking for an engine to build the turbo for. Like I said, you'll just have to bear with me. I know it's strange.

This is basically what I'm trying to find/figure out:

Engine...
1) I need to make this for a car which already has turbos commonly available (and used) for it, maybe even one that is common with a factory turbo. Obviously the more easily it can be modified, the better. So, what I'm basically needing to figure out is what cars/engines are readily available, reasonably inexpensive, and commonly turbo'd. (Needless to say my first thoughts were a Civic or else go old school for a junkyard 'Stang or somethin') What are your ideas?

2) What charger(s) for ^that^ engine are most used or easiest to work with.
(side question: Happen to have any "headed for the dump" chargers with trashed wheels? *hint hint*) ;)


Turbines...
To get me started with the 'tech' part of this, I'm looking for info on exhaust to intake ratios. No, I don't mean a/r ratios (which I learned tons about, thanks to this forum :D), I mean the ratio between the "input" of the turbine and the "output" of the compressor. If you had a theoretical turbocharger that blew (intake) at the same efficiency that it was blown (exhaust) what would their relative sizes need to be?

Well, I'll start out with this and see where it leads.
Feel free to grill me about what the hell I'm talking about, and I'll feel free to pick your brain. ^-^

THANKS!


P.S. I know I sound like a raging geek in this post, but I really am a car guy to the bone. O0 Don't hesitate to throw in some random cool ---- to keep this thread interesting :y

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

DSM or Starion/Conquest come to mind right away. Tons of turbos get used on either, and stock turbos (T25, 14B, 12a) from either can be had for cheap.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

Thanks, Briman2021 :)

Now isn't that sad. Out of all the guys here, the only one to respond with a recommendation is a fellow noob.

You really mean to tell me that out of all the technical expertise floating around this forum, NO ONE in interested by custom making a turbo wheel OR cares to discuss turbine/compressor ratios?¿?

I mean c'mon, any help would be a godsend and even flaming would be entertaining...but being ignored...that's just sad :'(

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

All I can can say is that what you are propsing is a technical nightmare! The equipment needed for setting up a turbine/compressor wheel(s) is astronomically expensive. Even if you do firgure out the numbers and what you would want to build, the money that would go into truly making a CUSTOM turbo from scratch yourself would be totally pointless unless you planned on opening a shop to sell and build turbos.

Not to be totally useless, here's some tools I found for calculating turbo size for any particualr application...

http://www.turbofast.com.au/TFmatch.html

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

http://www.smokemup.com/tech/turbo101.php

http://60degreev6.com/discussion/dlo...ff5c9d8fcd9ebe

http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/turbo_size3.php

Sorry not to be more helpful...

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

What you're doing is totally irrational and stupid. Good luck failing ::)

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

You dont have a engine you are finding a specific turbo or size or special need for, and you are choosing the engine around the turbo that you dont have or know what or why or how to do or make. Are you going to make the compressor and turbine all from scratch?> if so how? anyways, kinda cool to see someone creative.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

You are also going to need to build a custom engine built from scratch to match your turbo.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

build your own turbocharger eh....

Well its time for you to bone up on your math.

When your ready here are a few technical articles for you to read.

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1920/naca-tn-11/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1920/naca-report-29/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1921/naca-tn-48/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1939/naca-tm-902/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1942/naca-wr-e-197/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-report-806/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1946/naca-tn-1068/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-rm-e7c05a/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-tn-1216/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-tn-1214/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-tn-1313/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1948/naca-rm-e8f04/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1948/naca-tn-1713/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1949/naca-report-936/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1949/naca-tn-1932/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1949/naca-report-935/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1950/naca-report-954/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1951/naca-rm-e51a02/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1951/naca-tn-2464/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1951/naca-tn-2421/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1951/naca-tn-2584/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1951/naca-rm-e51d20/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-rm-e52h11/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-rm-e52e05/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-rm-e52e22/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/19...a-report-1083/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/19...a-report-1082/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2806/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2691/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2610/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2835/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2749/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2706/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1953/naca-rm-e52l22a/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1954/naca-rm-e54d23/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1954/naca-rm-e53l02/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1955/naca-rm-e55e13/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1955/naca-rm-e55f23/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1956/naca-tm-1385/

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/19...a-report-1279/

and thats just on compressor wheels.

These guys did it all with slide rules so no cheating and using a computer ;)

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

,Yes, but I'm not using a fan, screw or a centrifugal pump...so almost none of that applies, but I appreciate the advice. :)

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

All existing turbos use a centrifugal compressor. I strongly doubt your engine pumps enough air to even begin to consider an axial compressor. Read through more than the first few links I gave you. Its very good information.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

If I could answer you by rewording what you said...I am looking for an engine to build a turbo for which incorporates "wheels" I have designed.
I am trying to make as little of this kit from scratch as possible, except for the turbine/compressor. That's why I was mainly asking what turbo trims/assemblies would be easiest to modify to replace the internals.
My other question was what the approximate ratio of (turbine input)/(compressor output) is for most turbochargers. I know it's a little different for different engines, but even an approximate (or if you know the specifics for an engine you reccomend [i think I like the DSM suggestion] or for my engine [see below] ) would allow me to get a head start on part of total design.

:below:[I have a GA16DE that I was thinking of using, but then I wasn't going to use it because from what I've found there aren't really any turbos out there for it, which would make things harder, and because if I did boost it it would only be a few psi or else quickly wear out the engine (it's got over 300,000 miles). If you think I could do it with this engine, though, my ears are open for info.]

So, basically,
What existing turbos would it be easiest to replace the internals?
(subquestion:Does ^that^ turbo come stock on a certain engine or get commonly used on a certain engine?)

What is the average ratio of (pressure to turbine)/(pressure from compressor) or maybe (volume through turbine)/volume through compressor) in most turbos?

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

your idea is the crazies I have heard about.
I doubt there is average ratio of turbine/compressor flow rate because as I understand this is what you are reffering to.
here http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...ochargers.html you can find a lot of maps of compressors and turbines, but you change the housing and the graph is totaly different. Basically here you can see how graph change for different A/Rs
I'll put it this way, let's assume you have your design wheels made and they are fine, you put it into center cestion of any other turbo and the hot and cold side housings. Then you need to check what real is the flow of your turbine and only them you can figure out what engine this "custom" turbo will be good for.
Unles I have mixed something or missunderstood whot you want to do.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

If you wondering what type of turbo to base things on I would go with a T3 since they are used in about everything and you can get all sorts of housings for both the compressor and the turbine.

The pressure ratio of a turbine over the compressor is based entirely on the efficiency of the turbine and compressor at a given flow rate. The more efficient each the lower the pressure ratio. Commercial turbos usually run about a 2 to 1 ratio.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

OK, slightly different question then. What is the common range of volume in to volume out ratios between intake to exhaust. In other words what do you get when you divide the (volume of exhaust) from the engine by the (volume of intake) at normal air to fuel ratios?
I know things like intake air temperature, engine operating temperature, and other combustion variables have an effect on the answer to that (even within a specific engine) so that's why I asked for a "range" rather than a magic number.

on the average...
min. [(exhaust volume) / (intake volume)] --- max. [(exhaust volume) / (intake volume)] = ?-?

Thanks if you can give me some help on this or even direct me to some data. :)

Oh, and thanks Obscene_CNN for humoring me.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

I really know nothing about all this technical mumbo jumbo at all but I would say that a turbocharger is a force transformer (wheel and axle) first you need to know the desired flow rate of air at a specific rpm on the output side of the turbo then you need to find what the flow rate of the engine exhaust is at that same RPM. Once you know this information devide output over input to find the size ratio of the 2 sides. However because flow rate is not liniar I am guessing that the desired RPM would prity much have to be your redline and untill you hit that point urr gonna have a bunch of lag. But I really have no clue about anything. Good luck this should be "interesting"

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

More humor

Volume of exhaust = (displacement * rpm)/2 (assuming no blow down)

But seriously....

You can't use volume as a measurment because pressure varries based on load. This is also why compressor maps use mass flow. You need to look at enthalpy of the exhaust gasses and that depends on your engine and fuel ratio.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

OK, so how do I find out the mass flow of an engine without buying it and testing it?¿?

any suggestions? ???

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

there are easy to find mass flow formulas for engines based on rpm and displacement. also you can find the volume of the air coming in and going out by siple thermo dynamic formulas. remember the mass of the air going in is the same as the mass of the air goin out. so use the mass flow formula that can be found in a sticky thread on top of this forum section, the you can estimate the the temperature of the exhaust because you know the range it will be in and by the mass and the temperature you can get the volume and get your volume in/out ratio.

now how do you plan on producing a turbine wheel.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

FINALLY, a straight forward answer! :D

Unfortunately, I'm not going to give you one. :P
Life's a bitch, huh? AHAHAHAHAHAHA *ahem* I'll post more tommorrow, I'm tired.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

I'm going to make the turbo from one of my existing designs of bladeless turbine.

I need to calculate mass flow and pressure to determine the appropriate diameter of turbine and number of flow paths. From there I'll need to do testing of the installed application and adjust for variations between estimated efficiency and actual efficiency.

So far my only tests and data have been from "cold" testing. I figured a turbo would be the perfect way to test my designs under constantly varying heat and pressure conditions. It's the "hot side" that interests me most, but while I'm at it I plan on testing with both centrifugal compressor and BT versions on the "cold side", and comparing their performance.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

Bladeless turbine???

Like a tesla turbine? If you are using a tesla turbine, they aren't very efficient by todays standards, they were back when he invented them, but not now. They are much easier to make though.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

Their "lack of efficiency" and "outdatedness" are common misconceptions.
Most of the disinformation regarding them is the result of people who built them wrong, tried to change them to make it patentable, or who just plain assumed they weren't good.
Nearly all corporate ventures to utilize bladeless turbines (BT) have tried to somehow change the design enough to allow them to patent it as their own, and have reduced their efficiency. The scientific studies done on them were to assess the original design, yet all known scientific analyses of it have left out key features of the design and only tested "the basic operating force".
Anyway, i'm not trying to start a debate on the worthiness of the design, I just thought I'd let you know what I'm doing if for no other reason than to show I'm really NOT an idiot trying to build a high-speed bladed device in my basement and blow myself up. I originally asked that everyone "bear with me", but I can see I had to give SOME explanation in order to avoid a slew of "I'm not even going to answer you because you can't make a turbine anyway" type responses.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

I have no problem with you trying to build any type of turbine bladeless or otherwise. Tesla turbines work great until you start putting a load to them and then their efficiency drops.

Best of luck

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

OK then..........

Any reccomendations of a common, relatively inexpensive, engine with a turbo suitable for gutting?

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

Perhaps you could just buy a used jap toyota / nissan / mitsubishi engine, that came oem with a turbo. They get cheaper all the time as they age, so if you blow one up, then purchase another and continue with project.
BTW, this will an interesting feat of engineering, so pls post pics / design ideas for the HMT opinion.
Good Luck!

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

chevy 350

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

What cars had a 350 w/turbo? (I googled it but keep getting drowned with results for the "350 Turbo Transmission" rather than 350 engines)

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

none had a turbo but if you can make a turbine than you can surely make a manifold

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

You might want to consider using a diesel engine for a test bed as a diesels exhaust tends to be cooler than a gasoline engine. This could save you a lot of grief trying to deal with high temperature metals and such. You might try getting an OM617 turbo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_OM617_engine .

They are rugged and can be pushed up to 20psi of boost with out fear of blowing a head gasket. This would be handy since you will probably will have to create a waste gate too ( Assuming a tesla turbine can generate a high enough boost).

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

:y

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

:y

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

don't give up already :P

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

Me? Give up? Not bloody likely! :P ;D

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

But he's reinventing the wheel?! He's going to be famous oneday and will be awarded a nobel prize for reinventing the turbo.

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

What ever happened to this guy and his project?

Re: Turbo from scratch...(technical)
 

id think a good starting point would be a 2.3T from a thunderchicken or merkur or mustang. plenty of manifolds, lots of them sitting in jy's, use a t3 turbo...all sorts of good stuff about them.

All the links come up "Forbidden"

because the thread is over 6 years old