Small Turbo for Big Torque?
03-16-2009, 01:05 PM
#1
0.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 51
Small Turbo for Big Torque?
Thought i'd toss this out to get some feedback. I work with a rally team (DemonRally.com) and we are just getting the car together for this season, or what's left of it by the time we finish haha, and we started talking about future plans for the car. In their previous Rabbit, they won group 2 at a national rally (LSPR in Michigan) and do really well locally when they are able to complete the rally (something that will definitely change with the new car).
So anyways, we started thinking what we could do for some more power. we thought of going ***** out NA, but the cost of that is just to much for the budget. So obviously the next thing we thought of was boost, and we all know, turbo's are the way to go
augh:
We are looking for a turbo that would provide stupid amount of torque at the lowest rpm available. being in rally means we really dont need much overall hp. immediatly i thought of using a vw/audi Ko3 or Ko4, as the numbers i've seen would be awesome for what we are doing (250/60ish hp 300ft/lbs). Has anyone done this type of setup? Maybe some insight or thoughts to making "stupid" torque?
Old car:
We already are equipped with megasquirt, and ran it with great success last season, so we are just looking into possibilities for maybe a year or so down the road, once we get the rest of the car sorted out :thumbup: :beer:
"Basically allows air to pass from the intercooler straight to the exhaust ie bypass the heads, direct to the turbo, to allow air to tumble through the turbo fins, even though the throttle flap is closed. Stops turbo stalling its fan. The anti lag unit that meters the air apparently steps the flow of air, rather than allowing it to run smoothly. Common misconception that fuel is also injected, creating flames pop/bang etc, but seems this is more a bi-product of the mapping which surrounds a throttle lift off state."
wonder if we could get something like that setup...
So anyways, we started thinking what we could do for some more power. we thought of going ***** out NA, but the cost of that is just to much for the budget. So obviously the next thing we thought of was boost, and we all know, turbo's are the way to go
augh: We are looking for a turbo that would provide stupid amount of torque at the lowest rpm available. being in rally means we really dont need much overall hp. immediatly i thought of using a vw/audi Ko3 or Ko4, as the numbers i've seen would be awesome for what we are doing (250/60ish hp 300ft/lbs). Has anyone done this type of setup? Maybe some insight or thoughts to making "stupid" torque?
Old car:
We already are equipped with megasquirt, and ran it with great success last season, so we are just looking into possibilities for maybe a year or so down the road, once we get the rest of the car sorted out :thumbup: :beer:
"Basically allows air to pass from the intercooler straight to the exhaust ie bypass the heads, direct to the turbo, to allow air to tumble through the turbo fins, even though the throttle flap is closed. Stops turbo stalling its fan. The anti lag unit that meters the air apparently steps the flow of air, rather than allowing it to run smoothly. Common misconception that fuel is also injected, creating flames pop/bang etc, but seems this is more a bi-product of the mapping which surrounds a throttle lift off state."
wonder if we could get something like that setup...
03-16-2009, 05:43 PM
#2
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 121
I put a k03 on a 1.6 sohc and am running 6 psi, stock internals, boost at 2,500. I've also got a water/meth set-up as well, but I don't think you are legal with that? No rules against that for me (I ice race it in Michigan by the way) I was after the same thing as you, low speed torque, (2nd and 3rd gear) without the extra weight of a larger engine.
What engine in the rabbit?
What engine in the rabbit?
03-16-2009, 07:04 PM
#3
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 86
Will adding a turbo bump you up into a class where a rabbit cant compete ?
If you don't care about competing and just want to have fun it will help big time.
That exhaust manifold dosnt look like it would fit a rabbit engine.
My 84 GIT had a stage II callaway setup and was great.
If you don't care about competing and just want to have fun it will help big time.
That exhaust manifold dosnt look like it would fit a rabbit engine.
My 84 GIT had a stage II callaway setup and was great.
03-17-2009, 12:49 PM
#4
0.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 51
hahaha! ok first to clarify, the car we are now building is a mk2 golf w/ a 2l 16v. we are looking into boosting the car for more power down the road, and thought a very hi torque setup would be really nice for Rally. Apparently, although i have not checked, we are allowed one power adder and still remain in our class. this is another thing we will be looking into.
and that turbo is off a WRC suby, definetly not talking about making that work, i was refering to the anti-lag
and that turbo is off a WRC suby, definetly not talking about making that work, i was refering to the anti-lag
03-18-2009, 04:37 AM
#6
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rain City
Posts: 1,013
Well are there hp limits for the classes? Why don't you source a turbocharger that is most efficient and shoot for 1hp below the class limit. The KKK KO3 and K04 series turbos aren't all that bad especially if you want to run low boost to get that quick torque. KO3 is tiny though and will ---- itself if over-boosted even slightly. Since we're on the subject of small shaft turbochargers; I would also offer Mitsubishi's TDO5H-16G-7 in any of the various forms. Hell, the Evo316g is damn snappy at reasonable boost levels. You could put the EVO3 on there at 20psi and see some boost build quick, but probably not quick enough for you. Evo's (I believe up to 6) did great with that turbo in rallying for years. That alone should put the 16g near the front of your list for a rally car. Forgo the twin-scroll TDO5HR (I think that's what they call them) turbos from the newer Evo's if you want ease of installation.
Seriously though. You have almost limitless options. There's always the ($)baller($) bearing option, but for your insta-torque you'd more than likely have to run a T2 like a GT2860rs and honestly I've seen more blown "disco potatoes" around than any other turbo. I'd assume you're on somewhat of a budget though? Standard bearing for the win. Why not just toss a junkyard T3 60 trim with the .48 turbine housing on there? They share a very close compressor inducer size with the 16G, but IMO the Garrett is the better of the pair. I have personally witnessed a T3 with 300k miles on it still boosting 8psi daily. If you really wanted to kill your top end you could probably find a turbine housing as small as .36 haha. Again, not instant boost from this turbo, but 250whp is attainable and sustainable out of a T3 60 trim. Drop dime for a proper rebuild and I think once you feel turbo vs n/a in your car you won't be so stuck on the spool issue.
Seriously though. You have almost limitless options. There's always the ($)baller($) bearing option, but for your insta-torque you'd more than likely have to run a T2 like a GT2860rs and honestly I've seen more blown "disco potatoes" around than any other turbo. I'd assume you're on somewhat of a budget though? Standard bearing for the win. Why not just toss a junkyard T3 60 trim with the .48 turbine housing on there? They share a very close compressor inducer size with the 16G, but IMO the Garrett is the better of the pair. I have personally witnessed a T3 with 300k miles on it still boosting 8psi daily. If you really wanted to kill your top end you could probably find a turbine housing as small as .36 haha. Again, not instant boost from this turbo, but 250whp is attainable and sustainable out of a T3 60 trim. Drop dime for a proper rebuild and I think once you feel turbo vs n/a in your car you won't be so stuck on the spool issue.
03-19-2009, 01:32 PM
#7
0.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 51
i need to do a bit more to find out the exact rules for adding boost in our class. we run group2 in Rally America...
i have three ko3's just sitting in a box, and that was my first thought. We are definetly on a budget, but we also have zero qualms with spending money where it needs to be spent to get a system together that will be hassle free. the 16g's are definetly up there on a list of snails to look into..
i have three ko3's just sitting in a box, and that was my first thought. We are definetly on a budget, but we also have zero qualms with spending money where it needs to be spent to get a system together that will be hassle free. the 16g's are definetly up there on a list of snails to look into..
03-19-2009, 08:02 PM
#9
0.5 BAR
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 121
i need to do a bit more to find out the exact rules for adding boost in our class. we run group2 in Rally America...
i have three ko3's just sitting in a box, and that was my first thought. We are definetly on a budget, but we also have zero qualms with spending money where it needs to be spent to get a system together that will be hassle free. the 16g's are definetly up there on a list of snails to look into..
i have three ko3's just sitting in a box, and that was my first thought. We are definetly on a budget, but we also have zero qualms with spending money where it needs to be spent to get a system together that will be hassle free. the 16g's are definetly up there on a list of snails to look into..
03-19-2009, 10:12 PM
#10
3.0 BAR
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NE-PA
Posts: 4,666
I can pretty much guarantee that any of the Evo turbos over the Evo 3 16g will be too big for the power range you want. The Evo 3 contains a 7cm^2 exhaust housing that will still spool very quickly for great bottom end power, whereas Evo turbo's above that usually use a 10.5 hotside (what I currently run) with the smallest size being a 9.8cm. Even the 9.8 would be a little too laggy for your goal. It also depends on class rules as to what you can run like iceracedude mentioned.
