Please Help With Turbo Selection Z32NA - Holset rear (remote) turbo?!
11-08-2011, 11:05 AM
#21
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11
i think i am going to go the way of the stock plenum as well, and i might or might not use the 2 to 1 intercooler.
since you are going to put in the TT pistons you will want more boost. i think im going to run the stock NA pistons with 370cc injectors and stock TT ecu.
my turbo is going to be smallish hopefully i can find a quality unit with an internal wastegate for reasonable - i dont really wanna go 70 so maybe a .63 since they seem to be plentiful. some are rated for 2.2 to 3.2 engines
i thinki am going to rethink the mounting - ive seen some different ideas and i am not ruling out the rear mount at all, i think its a good option for this car - but i might be trying to do something like this
http://www.twinturbo.net/nissan/300z...sover-799.html
except im probably not going to go over the transmission, but tucked right up under it because i am going to keep my NA headers. if i get the turbo up in there i can then forgo the oil pump situation and use the oil hook ups on the engine that are for the TT but plugged on the NA.
i also wanna fabricate some thing so the passenger side exhaust is closer to the same length as the drivers side - i may need to do the math and use different size pipes on left and right to compensate for the back pressure differential - if its even possible... but it doesnt seem to matter to this guy anyway - so why should it matter to me?
oh - and about your computer situation..
you can send your ecu off to Z1 and have them tune it for you based on what all you have in your car - probably not ideal, but its not horribly expensive and they are pretty sharp
since you are going to put in the TT pistons you will want more boost. i think im going to run the stock NA pistons with 370cc injectors and stock TT ecu.
my turbo is going to be smallish hopefully i can find a quality unit with an internal wastegate for reasonable - i dont really wanna go 70 so maybe a .63 since they seem to be plentiful. some are rated for 2.2 to 3.2 engines
i thinki am going to rethink the mounting - ive seen some different ideas and i am not ruling out the rear mount at all, i think its a good option for this car - but i might be trying to do something like this
http://www.twinturbo.net/nissan/300z...sover-799.html
except im probably not going to go over the transmission, but tucked right up under it because i am going to keep my NA headers. if i get the turbo up in there i can then forgo the oil pump situation and use the oil hook ups on the engine that are for the TT but plugged on the NA.
i also wanna fabricate some thing so the passenger side exhaust is closer to the same length as the drivers side - i may need to do the math and use different size pipes on left and right to compensate for the back pressure differential - if its even possible... but it doesnt seem to matter to this guy anyway - so why should it matter to me?
oh - and about your computer situation..
you can send your ecu off to Z1 and have them tune it for you based on what all you have in your car - probably not ideal, but its not horribly expensive and they are pretty sharp
11-08-2011, 08:45 PM
#22
0.0 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
TT pistons - Yup. I've changed my plan a hundred times, but I decided that if I find I can make good boost regardless of mounting - I want to take advantage of it.
Yea - I've seen what you have in that link. I didn't think there was room to cross over up there - but the more I tear my engine bay down, the more I see that there may be. The only worry I have is - can you service the tranny/clutch w/o a motor pull? It looks like the pipe is right in the way of the tranny bolts. Maybe flange it on each side so it can be shifted around with the motor in?
If I go rear mount, the plan is to go back to factory headers. If you look at the pass header, the first thing it does is swoop up . Flange it there and send a pipe over the tranny. Prepare the driv header with a 'y' at the end. One leg of the 'y' welded to the driv header, one leg flanged to the 'over tranny crossover pipe', and a larger leg flanged down out to the turbo. All with best effort for good flow. This will also have the benefit of eliminating an exhaust pipe coming down the pass side, leaving ample space for a cold pipe to come up and through.The hot pipe can follow where the factory drivers pipe on the dual exhaust went and the cold pipe can come up where the pass pipe on the dual exhaust was. Nice n' tight.
I don't worry about the crossover, Find me a V engine with a single turbo that doesn't have a crossover (well, I'm sure you could but you know what I mean).
I do like the idea of a small turbo in the battery location. I think it has potential. I would worry about heat! Maybe open the side wall into behind the fender to allow air to whip through? huh...
My programming issue is concerning a separate microcontroller to take input from the TPS and a MAP to run a servo or stepper motor to control the variable vanes. ugh!
We could just get Supras and make life easy....nah.
Yea - I've seen what you have in that link. I didn't think there was room to cross over up there - but the more I tear my engine bay down, the more I see that there may be. The only worry I have is - can you service the tranny/clutch w/o a motor pull? It looks like the pipe is right in the way of the tranny bolts. Maybe flange it on each side so it can be shifted around with the motor in?
If I go rear mount, the plan is to go back to factory headers. If you look at the pass header, the first thing it does is swoop up . Flange it there and send a pipe over the tranny. Prepare the driv header with a 'y' at the end. One leg of the 'y' welded to the driv header, one leg flanged to the 'over tranny crossover pipe', and a larger leg flanged down out to the turbo. All with best effort for good flow. This will also have the benefit of eliminating an exhaust pipe coming down the pass side, leaving ample space for a cold pipe to come up and through.The hot pipe can follow where the factory drivers pipe on the dual exhaust went and the cold pipe can come up where the pass pipe on the dual exhaust was. Nice n' tight.
I don't worry about the crossover, Find me a V engine with a single turbo that doesn't have a crossover (well, I'm sure you could but you know what I mean).
I do like the idea of a small turbo in the battery location. I think it has potential. I would worry about heat! Maybe open the side wall into behind the fender to allow air to whip through? huh...
My programming issue is concerning a separate microcontroller to take input from the TPS and a MAP to run a servo or stepper motor to control the variable vanes. ugh!
We could just get Supras and make life easy....nah.
Last edited by mpmarino; 11-08-2011 at 08:53 PM.
11-09-2011, 07:17 AM
#23
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11
if you want to skip the intercooler and rely on the aluminum pipe to disapate your heat you wight want to look into this..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130361901752...84.m1423.l2649
maybe right before your Y split into the intake behind the electric fan ( i plan on wiring mine up to the switch rather than a temp switch so it runs all the time)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130361901752...84.m1423.l2649
maybe right before your Y split into the intake behind the electric fan ( i plan on wiring mine up to the switch rather than a temp switch so it runs all the time)
11-09-2011, 08:05 AM
#24
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11
get a Supra?
boy i oughtta...
anyway, heat is always an issue. i would wrap everything on the hot side, in and out of the turbo until out of the engine bay. then get one of those hot side turbo covers. they came in trick looking "chrome"
then also some shiny heat blanket and put directly on the firewall and fender well up front.
im not as concerned about the heat because small electric fans are cheap and easy to mount almost anywhere.
since i am away from home i had a local shop drop in a transmission / clutch and replace the headers with some stainless highflow headers.
they let me in the shop with the car up on the lift and i was able to take a really good look at everything and take a ton of pictures and measurements.
bottom line.... i want my own lift!!!
now the ideas are swirling anew with possibilities, and there are limitations i didn tknow about before
the choke point on space came in 2 main spots on this car
first is the right in front of the transmission under the car where the cross member is behind the front wheels. its near impossible to find room to snake 1 pipe let alone 2 or three. so that all but eliminates the idea of running acold pipe up throught there to the front unless you go under the cross member - and to be honest i want to keep everything as far from the ground as possible.
the rearmount area is WIDE open on my car - tons and tons of room out back to do whatever i want.
but i keep wanting to get the turbo closer to the front to eliminate the distance variable. its gets harder to judge turbo size, boost, spool up speed, and such when the turbo is farther away and the exhaust gasses have cooled and slowed down. plus you are trying to compress the air in a much larger area coming back up front.
again-- alot of - put it in and see how it does rather than having a set idea of what you want before you start.
sooo... my plan now..
i think i am going to come out of the stock header on the drivers sideback slightly and accross the tail of the transmission and back up the passenger side tucked in tight. then the passenger side comes down and back slightly moved out as far away from the tranny as possible - makes a 180 and meets up with the other side - heading in the same direction. they go into a y collector with a 3 inch flange that will then have a 90 and pipe snaked up beside the engine on the passenger side then another 90 pointing back going to the turbo.
the turbo output will be facing the front of the car where i will snake the the charge pipe into a 2 into 1 intercooler (flowing backwards) then into the dual intakes.
seems soooo much more complicated than it really is because i wont have to do a whole ton of fabricated, and bending. the shop had some exhaust pipe and fittings like 180s and 90 so i could easily see where to run it all to.
all i reall need to do is use pre- bent 90s and 180s and i am welding in flex joints with flanges to bolt and unbolt into easily removable pieces i can tack it all together then remove it and do my novice style welding with the pieces on my bech. heat wrap it and bolt in it like a removable package deal.
oh - and one more thing - this allows me to come back with a 3 inch exhaust pipe along the drive shaft and split it into the dual exhaust.
the best thing about this set up for me - is that it will keep everything tucked up close under the car. the lowest point shound only be 2.5 under the transmission tail as i go accross it. most everything else will be beside the drive shaft -except the passenger side 180 heading back up front which will come out of the tunnel slightly and right back in.
ill post some sketches i have been working on shortly if i can..
boy i oughtta...
anyway, heat is always an issue. i would wrap everything on the hot side, in and out of the turbo until out of the engine bay. then get one of those hot side turbo covers. they came in trick looking "chrome"
then also some shiny heat blanket and put directly on the firewall and fender well up front.
im not as concerned about the heat because small electric fans are cheap and easy to mount almost anywhere.
since i am away from home i had a local shop drop in a transmission / clutch and replace the headers with some stainless highflow headers.
they let me in the shop with the car up on the lift and i was able to take a really good look at everything and take a ton of pictures and measurements.
bottom line.... i want my own lift!!!
now the ideas are swirling anew with possibilities, and there are limitations i didn tknow about before
the choke point on space came in 2 main spots on this car
first is the right in front of the transmission under the car where the cross member is behind the front wheels. its near impossible to find room to snake 1 pipe let alone 2 or three. so that all but eliminates the idea of running acold pipe up throught there to the front unless you go under the cross member - and to be honest i want to keep everything as far from the ground as possible.
the rearmount area is WIDE open on my car - tons and tons of room out back to do whatever i want.
but i keep wanting to get the turbo closer to the front to eliminate the distance variable. its gets harder to judge turbo size, boost, spool up speed, and such when the turbo is farther away and the exhaust gasses have cooled and slowed down. plus you are trying to compress the air in a much larger area coming back up front.
again-- alot of - put it in and see how it does rather than having a set idea of what you want before you start.
sooo... my plan now..
i think i am going to come out of the stock header on the drivers sideback slightly and accross the tail of the transmission and back up the passenger side tucked in tight. then the passenger side comes down and back slightly moved out as far away from the tranny as possible - makes a 180 and meets up with the other side - heading in the same direction. they go into a y collector with a 3 inch flange that will then have a 90 and pipe snaked up beside the engine on the passenger side then another 90 pointing back going to the turbo.
the turbo output will be facing the front of the car where i will snake the the charge pipe into a 2 into 1 intercooler (flowing backwards) then into the dual intakes.
seems soooo much more complicated than it really is because i wont have to do a whole ton of fabricated, and bending. the shop had some exhaust pipe and fittings like 180s and 90 so i could easily see where to run it all to.
all i reall need to do is use pre- bent 90s and 180s and i am welding in flex joints with flanges to bolt and unbolt into easily removable pieces i can tack it all together then remove it and do my novice style welding with the pieces on my bech. heat wrap it and bolt in it like a removable package deal.
oh - and one more thing - this allows me to come back with a 3 inch exhaust pipe along the drive shaft and split it into the dual exhaust.
the best thing about this set up for me - is that it will keep everything tucked up close under the car. the lowest point shound only be 2.5 under the transmission tail as i go accross it. most everything else will be beside the drive shaft -except the passenger side 180 heading back up front which will come out of the tunnel slightly and right back in.
ill post some sketches i have been working on shortly if i can..
11-11-2011, 07:54 AM
#25
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180713326617...WAX:IT&vxp=mtr
you would need a pump for this kit - and i would ditch the radiator for a smaller oil or water heat exchanger to save room.
they say you can use a cheap bilge pump as a water pump but you need a tank in your trunk or somewhere to circulate the water back into so the pump can pick it up. those pump are cheap - 15 bucks but i know from experience they arent ment for constant use. there are tone of cheap electric water pumps tho - like $50 and under.
you would need a pump for this kit - and i would ditch the radiator for a smaller oil or water heat exchanger to save room.
they say you can use a cheap bilge pump as a water pump but you need a tank in your trunk or somewhere to circulate the water back into so the pump can pick it up. those pump are cheap - 15 bucks but i know from experience they arent ment for constant use. there are tone of cheap electric water pumps tho - like $50 and under.
11-11-2011, 08:32 PM
#26
0.0 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Thanks!
My real quandary at this point is where to put the turbo
?
If I go in front of the motor obviously it will have more potential, BUT BUT BUT this will put more hardware in the front of an already front heavy car. The turbo I'm using is bigger and heavier than you would believe. I will also have to use a smaller radiator angled and pushed forward (not good)...ugh.
If I go rear remote mount we will probably have less potential, BUT BUT BUT between that and the battery pushed to over the rear axle, I bet weight distro will be very close to 50/50 - and this would be quite cool. Since we're not talking about a drag car here - this seems to make more sense. HE HE the turbo is so big it'll be tight back there too! I just worry that I will always wonder how much 'gooder' the boost could have been if I went up front..
When I look up at what I just typed, and think about the whole experiment of attempting to get early spool with the variable vanes - Then remote seems the way to go. The whole thing is somewhat unconventional. Feel free to kick me in the a$$ on this anyone.
I have to admit I've lost a bit of sleep over this
(motor stripped of accessories and wiring - tranny out - borrowing my buddys crane and stand this weekend) Am I past the point of no return? could be! But she's gonna roll in the spring hell or high water. When I get to something relevant I'll start a little chronicle, but I will say I'm not much into stopping to snap pics, I'm more into plowing forward.
My real quandary at this point is where to put the turbo
?If I go in front of the motor obviously it will have more potential, BUT BUT BUT this will put more hardware in the front of an already front heavy car. The turbo I'm using is bigger and heavier than you would believe. I will also have to use a smaller radiator angled and pushed forward (not good)...ugh.
If I go rear remote mount we will probably have less potential, BUT BUT BUT between that and the battery pushed to over the rear axle, I bet weight distro will be very close to 50/50 - and this would be quite cool. Since we're not talking about a drag car here - this seems to make more sense. HE HE the turbo is so big it'll be tight back there too! I just worry that I will always wonder how much 'gooder' the boost could have been if I went up front..
When I look up at what I just typed, and think about the whole experiment of attempting to get early spool with the variable vanes - Then remote seems the way to go. The whole thing is somewhat unconventional. Feel free to kick me in the a$$ on this anyone.
I have to admit I've lost a bit of sleep over this
(motor stripped of accessories and wiring - tranny out - borrowing my buddys crane and stand this weekend) Am I past the point of no return? could be! But she's gonna roll in the spring hell or high water. When I get to something relevant I'll start a little chronicle, but I will say I'm not much into stopping to snap pics, I'm more into plowing forward.
Last edited by mpmarino; 11-11-2011 at 08:35 PM.
11-16-2011, 10:24 AM
#27
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11
i have looked into putting the turbo up front and that was plan for a minute. but because my car is a convertible my back section is different. i dont have a gas tank to deal with only a spare tire. i have alot more room out back than i do up front.
i also looked into a thicker head gasket. Greddy and Cometic both make variable thickness metal head gaskets specifically for reducing compression for the Z. the cost is about $200 and you can get them in thicknesses ranging from 1mm to 1.6mm. these are ment for super high boost situations on an already built engine so i have no doubt that a 1mm metal head gasket will hold say 10lbs of boost without failing.
this will mean i dont need to pull the cylinder block - get honed, and machined , and then buy new TT pistons. you see, its a slippery slope, you start by saying - im going to put in the TT pistons then it turns into - well while i have the head off i might as well get the valves reworked, and im going to need a cylinder hone, and then i need to check the cylinder block for flatness and have it machined down while its off. plus im going go ahead and put some different head bolts in and a better base gasket......
you see thats why i am going to pull off the plenum/ manifold add 370cc injectors, do the timing belt and then its as simple as pulling the head and putting in a new set uf gaskets while its all apart...
ill take the cylinder head over to the parts sink, give it a good cleaning, inspect it and bolt the bitch right back on... total cost? $100 for the timing belt. $40 for valve cover gaskets, and 200 for the head gasket. (still looking for a good price on injectors)
but cost insnt really the issue here is it - its more about simplicity for me.
oh - and i already have my spare engine sitting on the stand waiting to rock and roll. all the while im still rolling my car around just fine.
and i did the math on the thickness - basically each cylinder displaces 500ccs.
the bore size is 87mm
so the extra volume inside the cylinder would be the surface area of a circle that is 8.7cm x .1cm
that equals .594cc of extra space that does not get compressed
stock compression is 10.5:1
that means that the total volume compresses from 500cc to 4.76cc
this yeilds the extremely high ~184psi (under average barometric conditions at sea level)
i add the extra space of .594 and now the compression ratio is 500cc to 5.354cc
anyone? anyone?
that is a 9.328:1 compression ratio
almost exactly half way between the 10.5:1 of a NA and an 8.5:1 of a TT and should be about 165psi
should be a great daily driver with plenty of low end and very little lag. that should handle 8 lbs of boost easily - if the TT makes 300hp on 8lb os boost (150psi) then i should be slightly over that with 160- 170psi. (with a stronger base HP to start with it should have much better low end torque)
im also making a 1 into 2 plenum adapter out of carbon fiber to sit right up front. ill do some pics of that because you may want to replicate something. im going to form it from styrofoam, wrap it in glad wrap. spray it with release then carbon fiber it - afterwards pour acetone in it to dissolve the styrofoam and pull it out with the glad wrap.
i also looked into a thicker head gasket. Greddy and Cometic both make variable thickness metal head gaskets specifically for reducing compression for the Z. the cost is about $200 and you can get them in thicknesses ranging from 1mm to 1.6mm. these are ment for super high boost situations on an already built engine so i have no doubt that a 1mm metal head gasket will hold say 10lbs of boost without failing.
this will mean i dont need to pull the cylinder block - get honed, and machined , and then buy new TT pistons. you see, its a slippery slope, you start by saying - im going to put in the TT pistons then it turns into - well while i have the head off i might as well get the valves reworked, and im going to need a cylinder hone, and then i need to check the cylinder block for flatness and have it machined down while its off. plus im going go ahead and put some different head bolts in and a better base gasket......
you see thats why i am going to pull off the plenum/ manifold add 370cc injectors, do the timing belt and then its as simple as pulling the head and putting in a new set uf gaskets while its all apart...
ill take the cylinder head over to the parts sink, give it a good cleaning, inspect it and bolt the bitch right back on... total cost? $100 for the timing belt. $40 for valve cover gaskets, and 200 for the head gasket. (still looking for a good price on injectors)
but cost insnt really the issue here is it - its more about simplicity for me.
oh - and i already have my spare engine sitting on the stand waiting to rock and roll. all the while im still rolling my car around just fine.
and i did the math on the thickness - basically each cylinder displaces 500ccs.
the bore size is 87mm
so the extra volume inside the cylinder would be the surface area of a circle that is 8.7cm x .1cm
that equals .594cc of extra space that does not get compressed
stock compression is 10.5:1
that means that the total volume compresses from 500cc to 4.76cc
this yeilds the extremely high ~184psi (under average barometric conditions at sea level)
i add the extra space of .594 and now the compression ratio is 500cc to 5.354cc
anyone? anyone?
that is a 9.328:1 compression ratio
almost exactly half way between the 10.5:1 of a NA and an 8.5:1 of a TT and should be about 165psi
should be a great daily driver with plenty of low end and very little lag. that should handle 8 lbs of boost easily - if the TT makes 300hp on 8lb os boost (150psi) then i should be slightly over that with 160- 170psi. (with a stronger base HP to start with it should have much better low end torque)
im also making a 1 into 2 plenum adapter out of carbon fiber to sit right up front. ill do some pics of that because you may want to replicate something. im going to form it from styrofoam, wrap it in glad wrap. spray it with release then carbon fiber it - afterwards pour acetone in it to dissolve the styrofoam and pull it out with the glad wrap.
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