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More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power *Solved*
Never Heard of anyone with the same Situation hence im saying a World First...
Same Power at Different Boost Levels with Different Turbo's Hi There guys my question is, why does my car make the same Power and torque with Different Boost Levels with Different Turbo's. Where do you start looking? the managment is working 100% the air feul ration is perfect. Background: 1 year ago i put the Car on Dyno Std Computer. Made 142kw and 275nm boosting 1.2. i was happy as previouslt the car @.7 made 100kw 200nm. But the Tuner told me my smt6 is wired up wrong its does have power and there are x2 negatives on the extra Injectors. i must get it hooked up properly and try again. http://www.iformation.co.za/scoupe/1t.jpg So he hooks it up. and set's the car up a little rich for my liking... to i put it on dyno. i start @ 1.7 bar car makes same Power so i turb it down to 1.3 bar co surely it will make more power than it did at 1.2 bar. NOPE. it made teh same power at 1.7 & 1.3 than it did at 1.2 bar. So turbo must be to small... all the Above was done on a T2.5 http://www.iformation.co.za/scoupe/2t.jpg Then i go buy a T2.8 and take it to Cape Towns Most trusted Tuner .@ 1 bar it makes 130kw and 275nm so i told him go 1.2 bar on pump feul. car makes 144kw 286nm. http://www.iformation.co.za/scoupe/3t.jpg So what can we determine from this? Same KW & Nm with different boost and turbo. The Regional Megasquirt pro told me my airflow metter is running at Max Voltage Hence unable to make more power. Most people are quick to assume the turbo is to small, this car came out with a T1.5 and guys with the same Turbo's(Mitsi T2.8) are running 200kw+ or people think the feuling is Wrong. Now, Will fitting a Full managemnet system solve my problem's? what will happen to my Curves? When running a MAF/Piggy back does this kinda stuff happen? |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo Same Power...
10 psi on a .42/.48 trim is not the same as 10 psi on a bigger turbo. psi or bar level isn't what making power is all about. Its all about cfm
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Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo Same Power...
So what is the Problem?
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Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
what turbo's are you refering to? did you map them to even see where your plotting at in the islands on the map?
you may not even be close to spooling that turbo up to its desired range for your engine size. |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
You made no world first. No two different sized turbos will make identical power.
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Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo Same Power...
Originally Posted by Blahman240
10 psi on a .42/.48 trim is not the same as 10 psi on a bigger turbo. psi or bar level isn't what making power is all about. Its all about cfm
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Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
more information needed, what engine is this? etc.
what are you using to compensate ignition timing? its odd that your first two maps peak at 4500 rpms and then drop pretty dramatically, like its going into boost and running lean or too rich, or timing could be way off, i don't see how putting on a bigger turbo ( isn't a t2.8 like a t3 super 60?) and make less power with more pressure, also why is it that on the last chart your horsepower starts dropping just as before except not as drastically and yet the torque stays straight across and then jumps up right before redline. hopefully a more experienced person can answer these questions, as i am only familiar with my own setup. |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
This is my Turbo's Compressor Effecency Map. I know guys who get results up to 2 bars boost with this turbo(Given they are Using much Higher Ocatne Feuls). i read the Comp Map good for atleast 1.5 bar. car is rurrently at 1.2 bar.
it is a 1500cc 12V Sohc Hyundai Scoupe GT Comp is 7.5-1 wit Full Custom Cold Air Intake ,Huge 10 Row FMIC with stainless steel piping , Robbie Ferroli Dumpvalve, WideBody adjustable FPR(Rising Rate),Full 63mm stainless steel exhaust system , 4 Extra injectors on second fuel rail ,Perfect Power SMT-6 Walbro 255 Feul Pump ,70mm Mr Turbo Throttle Body, Aftermarket Tubular Exhaust Manifold,15" Chrome TSW Rims More @ http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2581255
Originally Posted by E-b0la
You made no world first. No two different sized turbos will make identical power.
The Only thing im Assuming is that the AFM cant Consume More Air/Voltage Ceiling etc. But then why am i the Only Person with this Problem. Comp Maphttp://www.iformation.co.za/scoupe/MAPPP.jpg |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
144 kw is 193 hp?
looking at the map, the real reasonable limit for this turbo around 15-20 psi is 400 CFM MAX, which is 276 HP. ( 205kw.) so basically, this turbo alone, eventhough it's close to being maxed out, should not limit your power to 144 kw. Something else must be holding you back. |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
So what exactly is you management setup? I see the 4 additional injector and the FPR. Are you running a piggy back or something?
I'd bet it something with the tune/management. Have you looked at megasquirt? |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
Getting MegaSquirt Fitted today!
Its the Standerd Turbo Computer With Perfect Power SMT6 piggy back. Now that i look back. The car is running alot safer(AFR better Controled) But its making the Same power(like 5kw more maybee) Then it did on the standerd Computer so Piggy back has been awaste of time! pIggy back getting Ripped out Megasquirt STD alone going in |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
Meqasquirt was fitted and the HP Propblem solved, just thought id Finilize this Post!
MAF was holding the car back.... go MEGASQUIRT! http://www.iformation.co.za/scoupe/pgb%20vs%20msx.jpg Case closed! |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
I see you are trying for 12-13 seconds, its never gonna happen with that turbo, your car is peaking late and your power is dying out to quickly,
1) sumfing is wrong 2) get a bigger turbo this setup will never run in the 13's |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
Originally Posted by Schwitzer Turbo
Meqasquirt was fitted and the HP Propblem solved, just thought id Finilize this Post!
MAF was holding the car back.... go MEGASQUIRT! Case closed! its a very simple and easy mod: http://www.boostedmiata.com/MS/msebcwiring.jpg http://www.boostedmiata.com/MS/build/mods/msmods010.jpg |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power
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+1 to what he said, except if you want flat torque, flat boost isnt enough.
you want to tune to the same afr across that band, say 11:1 or something, and up boost in the poor flowing top end until pulsewidth is directly proportional to rpm. i did a sketch as a suggested approach for a high comp bmw guy whos concerned about response and wants some extra go. Attachment 21621 black is boost, red is future torque, blue future power. because the engine stops flowing in the top end you can prop it up somewhat with more boost there to get the same in cylinder pressures. provided its intercooled and the exhaust housing isnt too restrictive it shouldnt knock any more up top than anywhere else at the same torque. if your engine flows well at high revs naturally like many of these hondas, then just flat boost will be enough. fred. |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power
Originally Posted by fe3tcourier
+1 to what he said, except if you want flat torque, flat boost isnt enough.
you want to tune to the same afr across that band, say 11:1 or something, and up boost in the poor flowing top end until pulsewidth is directly proportional to rpm. i did a sketch as a suggested approach for a high comp bmw guy whos concerned about response and wants some extra go. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ting_boost.jpg black is boost, red is future torque, blue future power. because the engine stops flowing in the top end you can prop it up somewhat with more boost there to get the same in cylinder pressures. provided its intercooled and the exhaust housing isnt too restrictive it shouldnt knock any more up top than anywhere else at the same torque. if your engine flows well at high revs naturally like many of these hondas, then just flat boost will be enough. fred. its exactly what im doing. shooting to make it spool to 12psi then slowly make 14psi at redline, I need to do a bit more tuning and actually pull 7K next time, but you can see the difference in torque comparatively. http://www.boostedmiata.com/dynos/dy...foreafter1.jpg |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power
why is the graph with the much earlier spool so wobbly? (obviously the first hump is the boost spike, but the rest?)
looks good, cant wait to see the finished version :-) |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power
Originally Posted by fe3tcourier
why is the graph with the much earlier spool so wobbly? (obviously the first hump is the boost spike, but the rest?)
looks good, cant wait to see the finished version :-) the first graph was on the stock ecu and ignition. the second "wobbly" one was after upgrading to Megasquirt and a coil-on-plug setup. the spark map is anything but ideal, but I made some pulls just to play. I'm going to spend some time on a loading dyno this spring to tune the map up, you can also notice the spike in my boost, which I tuned about 5 minutes before strapping down on the street. |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
Originally Posted by Braineack
how does you boost log during your pulls? Looks like it peaks and then drops off fast? Are are making boost and losing it just as quickly? You're HP would increase significantly if you can keep your torque from falling. If boost dropping off is the case, I suggest moding your megasquirt to run a boost solenoid and tune that ---- flat to redline.
its a very simple and easy mod: |
Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
Originally Posted by Schwitzer Turbo
The boost goes to 1.5 bar and Stay's Exactly there....
He's saying rig the megasquirt to control boost like an EBC, well not like because that's exactly what it would be. You're turbo is fine, I don't know how circleburner answers every question he responds to incorrectly, you think by now statistically he could have been partially right. ::) Schwitzer it'd be nice if for once you let us know everything that is on the car and what you have done to it, but don't say "okie" when you do it. :3 |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power
lol, nice avatar too!
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Re: A World First: More Boost,Bigger Turbo....
Originally Posted by wafflesincars
Aren't you running a Honda? What made you go with that megasquirt?
He's saying rig the megasquirt to control boost like an EBC, well not like because that's exactly what it would be. You're turbo is fine, I don't know how circleburner answers every question he responds to incorrectly, you think by now statistically he could have been partially right. ::) Schwitzer it'd be nice if for once you let us know everything that is on the car and what you have done to it, but don't say "okie" when you do it. :3 We fitted the Methonal Injection today we 90% finished.Cant wait to give you guys some water/meth numbers..... Also finished my Toggile switches/Medium/High boost today/https://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/...?topic=88114.0 Will put up a More detailed Mod List soon http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2581255 Thanks to all at HMT for Helping me/giving me the confidence to push the limits. |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power *Solved*
The good thing about a having a crappy car - you are forced to do everything you can to make power. That gives you 'skillz', girls like guys with skillz. :1
Seriously though, not bad for a 1.5L. Just 2 things I have to mention - 'BHP' is brake horsepower, and is measured off the crank with a engine dynometer, while WHP is wheel horsepower at the wheels; 2nd thing is the turbo designation - its T15, T2, T25, T3, T04, etc. No T-two-point-five. There's some leeway with the zero, though, since they refer to them as T03's and T3's at times. |
Re: More Boost,Bigger Turbo=Same Power *Solved*
To compare the Tdo4H 15/16T i would Rekon it would = a Garrett T28 ;D
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