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Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
ok, I know this is not honda, but neither is the front page news.......I have recently aquired a 1984 Mercedes 190d (deisel). it is a 2.2 ltr n/a engine. Am I correct in assuming that If i build the manifold, and get everything hooked up, all i have to do, for fuel dilivery is turn up the fuel injector pump, right? my other questions are as follows; 1. how can i possibly tune the a/f ratio on this, (do i have to just go by how much it smokes) 2 if i am trying to maintain higher fuel miliage, should i use an intercooler for say aroung 6lbs of boost? Thanks..... :-\
When I get this going I will post pics... |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by AccordX2Boost
ok, I know this is not honda, but neither is the front page news.......I have recently aquired a 1984 Mercedes 190d (deisel). it is a 2.2 ltr n/a engine. Am I correct in assuming that If i build the manifold, and get everything hooked up, all i have to do, for fuel dilivery is turn up the fuel injector pump, right? my other questions are as follows; 1. how can i possibly tune the a/f ratio on this, (do i have to just go by how much it smokes) 2 if i am trying to maintain higher fuel miliage, should i use an intercooler for say aroung 6lbs of boost? Thanks..... :-\
When I get this going I will post pics... |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Don't diesels like detonation?
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Isn't hard to detonate a diesel? My parent's turbo deisel has a static CR of 18:1... crazy. But then again, it uses that high compression for it's explosion, no spark plugs.
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
honestly you cant really tell a/f buy how much it smokes, that like tunning a gasoline car by the smell of the exhast. the key to diesels is injector timing, a diesel dosent inject on the down stroke it injects fuel the split second before tdc. and my dads turbo diesel has cr or 22:1 ------- insane
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
ok, that's what i needed to know how do you come up with the "cr" (what does that strand for? combustion ratio?) 22:1?
I have heard that if a turbo deisel is smoking that you need to turn up the boost until it doesn't smoke (much) but I am not a deisel expert. (so that's where that comment came from) also, i know that they run lean anyway because of the high compression, but i just want it to be reliable and get good gas miliage, while having a little more pickup than stock. (like 80hp) so i am not trying to blow the engine, or race the car. I want somewhere around 120-130 hp. i'm thinking that 6lbs of boost should do the trick, but would i need an intercooler? if I don't really need it then this would be much easier. also being an automatic should i still put a blowoff on this setup, i've heard that you don't need it on deisels, but that don't really make sense to me. Thanks for ya'lls imput/help yo :-\ |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by AccordX2Boost
ok, that's what i needed to know how do you come up with the "cr" (what does that strand for? combustion ratio?) 22:1?
I have heard that if a turbo deisel is smoking that you need to turn up the boost until it doesn't smoke (much) but I am not a deisel expert. (so that's where that comment came from) also, i know that they run lean anyway because of the high compression, but i just want it to be reliable and get good gas miliage, while having a little more pickup than stock. (like 80hp) so i am not trying to blow the engine, or race the car. I want somewhere around 120-130 hp. i'm thinking that 6lbs of boost should do the trick, but would i need an intercooler? if I don't really need it then this would be much easier. also being an automatic should i still put a blowoff on this setup, i've heard that you don't need it on deisels, but that don't really make sense to me. Thanks for ya'lls imput/help yo :-\ once you get your injector timing and ---- set, you should be able to run whatever you want for boost. diesels don't NEED boost, but their poor natural vacuum makes the demand for boost much higher (and funner) |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Ok, diesels use compression ignition. They operate at compression ratio's of 20:1, they have no throttle plate, regulating their power output by the amount of diesel injected.
By using a turbo charger, it is possible to force more air into the cylinders and therefore allow more fuel to be burnt. It also ensures more complete combustion of the fuel. Intercooling is always a good idea, it increases charge density. Since diesels have no throttle plate a blow off valve does absolutely ---- all. The major item on your shopping list should be an FMU, sounds odd but most old skool mechanical injection diesels increase fuel pressure when in boost to get more fuel in. Tuning is a case of getting the boost to where you want it (mostly where your turbo is efficient) and making sure its just below the point of smoking. The turbo choice for diesels is one i don't know enough to discuss, but i used to help mates tune peugeot diesels, which are just tractor engines. |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by c0mpl3x
industrial CAT motors bolt the compressor housing to the intake directly. and that's like 50psi worth of boost.
maybe on VERY few of the oldschool stuff, but not the new. 90% of the new CAT equipment comes intercooled, the rest still have traditional tubing, couplers, and clamps up to the motor |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by DrSeuss
The major item on your shopping list should be an FMU fuel is injected into cylinder at 500PSI or so (newer have even 1200PSI) - FMU is useles here. There 2 pumps - fuel pump and high pressure pump that injects the fuel thru injectors, all is mechanical unless it is pretty new diesel with common rail or with injectors that are high pressure pumps itself (those inject fuel at 1200PSI). the only way to tune fuel in diesel engine with mechanical injection is to increase capacity of each injecting cel in high pressure pump. There is one cel for each cylinder, there are inline and roto high pressure pumps. Injecting punp works like 2-stroke engine and putting in simple words the injector is an echaust valve but opened by the high pressure of diesel fuel. if you want boost with not installing fan get some gasoline with diesel fuel in your tank - your car will rock, but engine won't last long :D One more ting - if diesel smokes it doeas not mean it needs boost - the injector is worn and it is not spaying fuel good enough - actually it is leaking. |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
black smoke in deisels means lots of fuel. you can take stock deisel trucks, chip the ecu, dump a ---- ton more than stock fuel in the cylinders, and get instant horsepower. so i don't see why when it smokes you can't just turn up the boost to get rid of the smoke, cause then the gas to air ratio would even out more, and you would see more hp i suppose.
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
As a Mercedes Diesel owner I can give you some hints on tuning this diesel. Basically to tune a diesel you turn up the fuel until it starts smoking then back it off a bit. Your key to power is how much air your engine ingests. With more air you can burn more fuel. The more excess air you have in the cylinder, the more power you extract from the fuel you burn. Excess air also keeps the EGTs down. If you are going to turn up the fuel you'll want to install a pyrometer to monitor your EGTs so you can keep it below 1200 degrees F.
I do want to warn you that non turbo Mercedes diesel engines are different than the turbo engines. The turbo engines have oil jets that squirt on the under side of the pistons to keep them cool. There are some other minor differences as well. The general consensus of Mercedes owners on turboing a N/A diesel is don't do it. This is mainly because they take very good care of their cars don't want to blow up their engines. Another reason is you can get a million miles out of a Mercedes diesel and they view all other Mercedes like theirs as a potential organ donor and don't want others to blow up their engines as well. Its your engine burn it up if you want, it would be better to get a turbo engine to drop in. If you want a place to talk about hot rodding Mercedes diesels go here http://www.schumanautomotive.com/forums/index.php (look in super turbo USA) or here http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/index.php (under the diesel forum) |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by Obscene_CNN
As a Mercedes Diesel owner I can give you some hints on tuning this diesel. Basically to tune a diesel you turn up the fuel until it starts smoking then back it off a bit. Your key to power is how much air your engine ingests. With more air you can burn more fuel. The more excess air you have in the cylinder, the more power you extract from the fuel you burn. Excess air also keeps the EGTs down. If you are going to turn up the fuel you'll want to install a pyrometer to monitor your EGTs so you can keep it below 1200 degrees F.
I do want to warn you that non turbo Mercedes diesel engines are different than the turbo engines. The turbo engines have oil jets that squirt on the under side of the pistons to keep them cool. There are some other minor differences as well. The general consensus of Mercedes owners on turboing a N/A diesel is don't do it. This is mainly because they take very good care of their cars don't want to blow up their engines. Another reason is you can get a million miles out of a Mercedes diesel and they view all other Mercedes like theirs as a potential organ donor and don't want others to blow up their engines as well. Its your engine burn it up if you want, it would be better to get a turbo engine to drop in. If you want a place to talk about hot rodding Mercedes diesels go here http://www.schumanautomotive.com/forums/index.php (look in super turbo USA) or here http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/index.php (under the diesel forum) |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
correct me if im wrong
but more fuel more air in same size combustion chamber means more heat |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by AccordX2Boost
not rying to blow it up, correct me if i'm wrong but i took offence to your message. if you would have read everything i wrote, i said the i only wanted to raise the hp a little from 70hp to around 120 (4 +/- psi) that's not a lot and with an intercooler the pistons won't be getting much hotter than n/a. it's going to be a commuter and will be babied so what's your problem?
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by Atticus
correct me if im wrong
but more fuel more air in same size combustion chamber means more heat |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Around 1220 °F pure aluminum starts to melt. Stock the EGTs of my turbocharged 300SD can exceed 1050 °F. These EGTs are of the gases after they have expanded and lost heat to the block. Before that when they are compressed at 21 to 1 they are a lot hotter.
Oil jets to cool the pistons isn't the only thing that differentiates the Mercedes turbo diesel engines from their normally aspirated counter parts. The pistons themselves differ to allow the oil to cool them better. They also have to have sodium filled exhaust valves to keep the valves from burning. There are other differences too but these three are the main ones that will keep your engine from melting down. One final important difference is injector pump has a gizmo (The ALDA) on it that adjusts the fuel injected based on current boost level. Yes you can convert your engine to a turbo engine but really its just easier to get a turbo engine and drop it in. |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by Obscene_CNN
Around 1220 °F pure aluminum starts to melt. Stock the EGTs of my turbocharged 300SD can exceed 1050 °F. These EGTs are of the gases after they have expanded and lost heat to the block. Before that when they are compressed at 21 to 1 they are a lot hotter.
Oil jets to cool the pistons isn't the only thing that differentiates the Mercedes turbo diesel engines from their normally aspirated counter parts. The pistons themselves differ to allow the oil to cool them better. They also have to have sodium filled exhaust valves to keep the valves from burning. There are other differences too but these three are the main ones that will keep your engine from melting down. One final important difference is injector pump has a gizmo (The ALDA) on it that adjusts the fuel injected based on current boost level. So, forgetting about how much horsepwer i would gain how much boost could i run safely, if any? what if i put in an oil cooler would that help? and a huge front mount intercooler? I hear of people converting deisels to turbo all the time and also heard that they are easy to do and can handle the power, so it is surprising me that this is an issue. why is it that you can convert gasoline engines to turbo with little to no problems? also, would i need different glow plugs for turbo setup? thanks Yes you can convert your engine to a turbo engine but really its just easier to get a turbo engine and drop it in. |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Ok I have a general diesel question, why would a turbo diesel not be building boost. I have made sure that everything is sealed and even have a new wastegate but only vac, also i have checked the turbo and it seems to be brand new looking spins free. Could it be that it has old injectors that arn't puting out a good amount of fuel?
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by Obscene_CNN
Around 1220 °F pure aluminum starts to melt. Stock the EGTs of my turbocharged 300SD can exceed 1050 °F. These EGTs are of the gases after they have expanded and lost heat to the block. Before that when they are compressed at 21 to 1 they are a lot hotter.
Oil jets to cool the pistons isn't the only thing that differentiates the Mercedes turbo diesel engines from their normally aspirated counter parts. The pistons themselves differ to allow the oil to cool them better. They also have to have sodium filled exhaust valves to keep the valves from burning. There are other differences too but these three are the main ones that will keep your engine from melting down. One final important difference is injector pump has a gizmo (The ALDA) on it that adjusts the fuel injected based on current boost level. Yes you can convert your engine to a turbo engine but really its just easier to get a turbo engine and drop it in. HMT doesn't care much for naysayers, where there's a will, there's a way. Diesels are rock solid, you'll kill the engine, but probably not before you kill the car its in. Oh, common rail diesel engines work at fuel pressures of between 1000-2000 BAR, its enough to cut through several inch's of concrete. |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
So, forgetting about how much horsepwer i would gain how much boost could i run safely, if any? what if i put in an oil cooler would that help? and a huge front mount intercooler? I hear of people converting deisels to turbo all the time and also heard that they are easy to do and can handle the power, so it is surprising me that this is an issue. why is it that you can convert gasoline engines to turbo with little to no problems? also, would i need different glow plugs for turbo setup? thanks |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
i thought the leaner it runs the hotter the egt's?? maybe its not the same in diesels or maybe im just retarded..i just thought more air/less fuel equals more heat..
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
once you break into the world of diesel FORGET everything you EVER learned about a gas engine. there is some stuff that goes between the two of them but its best to relearn it all the right way instead of crossing things over that have nothing to do with eachother. yes, people convert diesels to turbo all the time and yes it works. im actually doing an old 7.3 right now with a banks sidewinder kit. honestly there isnt much left to say about this that these guys havnt said already. just listen to them. this is like trying to argue with xenocron that an FMU is better than crome, it aint gonna happen. there are a lot more diesel guys on here than i thought and they know what they are talking about. i looked into doing a turbo merc myself back when and i got the same response you have, dont, get a turbo engine. if you would listen to them and stop with the i heard stuff you would realize you could have a lot better car with more horsepower that is WAY more reliable with an engine swap than trying to turbo something that was never ment to be turboed. and no...u dont need turbo glow plugs...glow plug is a glow plug...all they do is get hot...
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
for fucks sake post pictures already. this thread is turning homo
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Okay here is whats possible to do with a Mercedes if you have the time, money, and will to do it (Note not mine though I wish it was)
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...s/mb%20031.jpg note it has both a turbocharger and a supercharger more pics can be found here http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.motorsport/ video http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v2...=matskuu-1.flv Diesel stationwagon, Can you say sleeper? |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
what the hell si that deal in the front right below the hood latch?
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
I think its a valve actuator to bypass the blower once the turbo starts making boost
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
i like the audi wastegate!
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
i love the chargepipe straps
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by Obscene_CNN
I think its a valve actuator to bypass the blower once the turbo starts making boost
its in the charge pipes for the turbo? |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
damn that's a pretty decent sized turbo! he must have more than 70 hp with that setup!!!!
Oh, and thumb up for the coupler straps! so cool feature!! it must become important for your safety when boosting 50+ psi on a diesel! |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
The exact HP and dyno results he is keeping secret but he has said he develops more than 400HP.
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Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
it looks like a holset HX something....
Why does he keep the HP of his car "secret" ?? I can't think of a good valid reason for that! |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by BLAAST
it looks like a holset HX something....
Why does he keep the HP of his car "secret" ?? I can't think of a good valid reason for that! |
Re: Mercedes Deisel --->Turbo Install *LOOK*
Originally Posted by BLAAST
it looks like a holset HX something....
Why does he keep the HP of his car "secret" ?? I can't think of a good valid reason for that! You could learn Finnish and try and sweet talk the details out of him here though http://mersuforum.net/forum/index.ph...45eb9f1061328f If AccordX2Boost is interested here is more discussion on turboing a 2.2L http://mersuforum.net/forum/viewtopi...45eb9f1061328f |
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