draw through useing LPG
 

Hey guys im looking at boosting my samurai.Im runnin an 83 ford 2300 4 banger in it.Currently just running the lpg through an Impco 125 mixer and a Cobra model J convertor.

I really dont know much about the turbo thing,Ive been beating my head trying to figure out how to get inrichment with the boost with out getting involved with computers,everything is mechanical right now and i want to keep it that way.(its a mountain goat,I get way back deep into the woods with it,I need to be able to fix problems with simple tools)

A light bulb came on over my thick skull the other day...DRAW through! right Just mount the butterfly portion (throttle plate)of my mixer on the intake,put the rest of the mixer on the intake side of the turbo,then as the boost came up it would suck harder and get more fuel as boost came up? I would need the BOV to recirculate the boosted propane vapor back in front of the mixer? or into the mixers intake?(air filter housing)

Im lookin at low boost,figure 6 -8 lbs would give me plenty of extra power.

My concerns,do I need to look at specicfic turbos to do this? meaning proper seals in the turbo to be runnin the propane into it?

I was thinking of one of those IHI turbos like off a Impreza?? I think I want a small turbo,with ball bearing and water cooled,since im sure this draw through set up will not allow the use of an intercooler(I have no room for one anyway)

Sure hope y'all dont mind helpin a newb out with this adventure with some good advice and shared Knowledge.

Thanks! Mike.

it seems that you have it under control and no specific turbo those ihi are pricey and harder to come by these days you can get a wrx non sti turbo tdo4 or tdo5 for cheaper thats not ballbearing but still water cooled correct me if im wrong but i think those 2300 are the same 2.3L motor out of the turbo svo mustangs ? if so they put garrett t3 turbos on those just a side note

Yes simliar motors,all though my motor has no means of an oil return or feed for the turbos oiling.Ill need to research this and figure out the best way to get oil and return it to the 2.3l block.


Thats what im finding now,seems like a few years ago I was contimplating doing this and the impreza IHI was priced ok and out there...not so much now hmmm.I was doing a bunch more reading im thinking maybe t3 super 60 might be a good turbo??

I would appreciate any input on the turbo selection.The rig is a rock crawler that sees lots of desert thrashing also.My biggest thing is I dont want lag!! I cant be crawlin along and all the sudden bam! have some boost! ya know?

So does the t3 super 60 have an internal waste gate? can you get one with?if so cant a guy rig that up in such a way to only let it produce say 6 lbs,therefore not needing the POV so no worries about exhausting boosted air filled with propane?

My ignorance is showing...lol

Really appreciate your responce.

Discussion:

i think this is a disaster waiting to happen. boost and carbs do not go well. add lpg and a draw through design to it and i cant imagine what would happen if something goes wrong.

i would at least build a blow through design and lose the lpg idea that way you can add a bov (yes its required even on low boost if you want your turbo to survive).

a t3 super 60 will work well. it should spool at ~2000-2500 rpm.

The rig is all built and the fuel system is LPG so it stays LPG. Ive run this same motor in my other rig and in the 6 years its been in service it has never back fired;) draw through is the only way I can see to get enrichment as boost comes on.

Do these t3 super 60 turbos have the correct seals to run draw through??

So whats going to happen if I back fire??? blow a boost tube coupler??

So If a guy goes back to my origional thought s on this,I would install a POV now do I rerout this vapor just in front of the turbo or should it go back in front of the mixer(carb)??

Apprecaite the input and advice!

discussion:

i cant give you advice on the pov return but for six pounds t3 super 60 really ? those are suppose to push 60lbs/min thats why they call it super 60 i dont think youll be in it efficiency range probably surge , i recommend a t25 or gt25 you can get a t25 off some second generation turbo eclipses , BOV are safty factors so get one also , for oiling they make sandwhich plates between the oil filter and block were you can tap oil from , or what i did i " T " into my oil pressure sensor to my turbo , as for the oil return just weld in a threaded bung 1 inch or bigger but keep it away from the oil sump , if you put it to close the reverb of the pump sucking creates a turbulance and doesnt allow the oil to freely return to the pan and backs up in drain line , causing the oil to force out the turbo seals

Well 6 lbs is just a number I through out there,just so its understood its a low boost application.My ignorance of the turbo's is obvious,thats why Im here trying to soak up some info and lookin for good advice from the non ignorant lol

My wanting a fast spool,little to no lag made me orginally think the t25 might be the best bet,then I have some guy tell me thats way to small and it wouldnt allow full power @WOT I dont want to choke the engine but I think fast spool is paramount...its always a compromise isnt it.Im a fabricator,not a tuner...attempting to learn though.8)

Appreciate your post! im biggining to get a clue lol

Your current setup now is probably running out of power in the 5500 rpm range anyway right? And you want all the low end grunt and torque you can get in a rig like this? Go with a small turbo, wouldn't a 14g, or small t3, t25, t28(.42 ar compressor) work well for this guy??

found this with a quick google search, a few hours of reading and searching and you should be well on your way. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/archi.../t-534052.html

If you get a hold of a factory ford turbo engine:

To awsome! thanks for the post!

yes sir that about where typically have it tuned,mostly bottom end power.Unless I go to a mud bog then I retard the cam timing a bit and crank up my mixer and I can build power all the way up to 7500 rpms kinda doggy on the bottom but when I hit about 3500 she lights the wick! and pulls hard8)

I dont mud race much anymore,I want the turbo for that extra mid range power to be able to hold 3rd gear on them long steep climbs...I run out of power now and have to down shift ,then lose all my momentum and im done! I think boosting it will push me over that hump and have enough power to pull the big climbs in third gear8)

So are these a POS turbo that I can plan on replacing soon after install?? or decent stuff?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-D...item3f0441846f

instincts tell me this could be a better quality turbo?? whatcha guys think??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Nissa...item2eb802480c

Again instincts tell me this is the turbo,but expensive.But much higher quality than the others I posted??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rebui...item3cb866ce05
Thanks guys,appreciate the help.

yeah the the first two are knock offs the last one is a real garrett t25 rebuild , but it all depends on quality control ive seen ebay turbos last forever and ive seen them grenade 2 weeks in , same with real garrett or borwarner or holset do the same thing its really hit and miss , to tell you the truth borg warners replacent center sections i find are more in "spec" then garrett ones , Also you said the svo mustang had similar motor id bet you take the oil pan off the svo, itd bolt right up , no need to fabricate and wahhh laa ! instint gratidification , given thats were the return is on the svo

Thats what Ive been hearing,kinda hit and miss with the china knock off.I aint made of money lol so im a fraid ill end up rollin the dice on the knock offs.I wonder how much of it is user abuse? runnin a good synthetic and not letting them cool before shutting the engine down,etc,etc poor quality air filters,etc. hard to say.

Thanks for the info on the oil pan that makes alot sense,I actually know where one of the SVO's are in town Ill have to go take a look at the oil pan.I recall seeing the lil I.C. under the hood.I wont be runnin an I.C. on my set up ,theres no room and i dont think the bomb would be a good idea lol thats alot of air and propane to be in an I.C. on my draw through set up.

Hey man appreciate your post and input on the subject!

In summary,Ive learned from you fine folks that a T3 could work well for my app. but I wont get boost untill I hit about 2,000 rpms.To me this is unacceptable I could see me on the perfect line crawlin a big ol rock at 1400 rpm and then all the sudden some boost comes on and nearly instantly im putting out more power,if the terrain isnt high bite! I could break traction and have an ugly wreck,slide off my line and have to retry.:(

BUt a t25 would give me nearly instant spool ,no to very little lag and y'all feel that the t25 wont restrict my WOT that much? A guy still be capable of an output near 250 hp with the 2.3L runnin a t25 or am I on pipe dream at this point?

I think at this point its pretty clear what I need for the rig,and what my expectaions of the turbo is.

What is your best advice for what turbo to go on the hunt for what AR etc go for the t25?

Thanks alot guys I appreciate the help.I know y'all dont like people just comin in and sayin what do I need! you figure it out for me! Im trying my best not to do that,Ive been reading and attempting to learn.Plus beeing polite and apprecaitive in hopes this will net me best success in getting good info from you folks.

Thanks,Mike.
Fwiw: this is my rock buggy I built that im wanting to boost.
https://www.homemadeturbo.com/attach...ine=1318535138
Ive built every inch of it,so y'all can see im not a complete idiot...but im a fabricator not a tuner.:(

Out in the dunes playin wishing I had boost! lol
https://www.homemadeturbo.com/attach...ine=1318535716
https://www.homemadeturbo.com/attach...ine=1318535716
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n...ukibild251.jpg

Nice buggy! Good work.

Thanks admin-roger..apreciate it.It work very good,just the 40" tires really sucked the power out of my 4 banger...


So anyone got anymore input on my turbo selection????


thanks for the help!

I don't think your scenario of how the boost will screw with your rock climbing abilities is correct. Boost is all moderated by your right foot, Unless your chugging away at 1500rpm at full throttle all the time its going to be a non issue. Unless you have an SVO engine you don't want to be putting 250hp out of that thing. Anyway, your still not thinking draw through right? You will need a turbo with a carbon seal if you are.

Anyway that's a sweet rig, Once you have a few turbo parts in your hands I have no doubt this will come together fairly quickly.

So you think a t3 with a small ar # would be better than the t25??

An svo engine and what I got are pretty much the same other than svo has the oil return already there and probably a differant cam profile.Any 2.3: (pinto motor)can handle 250hp no problem.Have you seen the main and rod caps on these engines! there big! I had a guy size up some SBC connecting rods for this engine on top of that...shes built tough!

I was told by putting the butterflys on my intake my turbo wont see much if any vaccum,so ther fore no need for the carbon seal? is this bad info??

I want the draw through so I can have inrichment along with the boost.If I blow through i dont get this! then Ill have to come with some sorta puter type set up to increase fuel as a bring on the boost...I dont want no puters in my mountain goat rig!!

Sure appreciate your input on this...im in no hurry,Ill continue to spong up on all the info I can learn untill im ready to do this mod.

Thanks!! Mike.

why not an extra injector controller? its a basic computer that will add fuel to your intake based on rpm and boost level. its a simple 3 wire hook up and it will do wonders for driveability and reliability. i would stay away from the draw through design.

So what so taboo about the draw through guys?? Blow through is the way to go ya think ,why?

Care to link me to such a computer for the inrichment...not real sure where I would find such a thing.Would this be the same type of gadget that the water meth systems use?it reads a boost signal and opens up a solenoid of some type to bring more fuel?

Again apprecaiate y'alls time trying to help a stuborn newb out .

Thanks! Mike.

no not the same. this is an actual computer that connects to additional fuel injectors you will add to the boost pipe or intake runners. the computer will add fuel when in boost only. you program the controller for how much fuel to add depending on rpm and boost pressure. this system with a blow through design is your best bet. you will need to add a fuel pump to the system in order for this to work. there are plenty of injector controller makers out there. do a google search for additional injector controller or extra injector controller. the draw through design is by far the easiest way to go but i just dont think running fuel through your turbo and piping is a good idea. i cant imagine what would happen if you backfire just once. which could happen easily if you dont get the mixture correct.

He is not running a wet injected system, from what i saw in the pictures, it is actually vaporized before it touches the mixer. The Draw through systems work very well and have been used for years. I am running a draw through system on my toyota 22re. there are no nozzles or computers needed. this is a simple system that is perfect for trail use. This is the got propane rig, draw through, 22re, turbo. From what i heard its pushing 300hp, and is mated to a c4.

Sorry to get off topic, is this what your doing with bike turbo's? If so what controller are you using? I think with the right turbo the draw through would work, but I would think it would be a bit more lag?

Maybe I am not understanding how the propane delivery works? Would the throttle plate be before or after the turbo on the draw through?

I have a 79 turbo 2.3 Mustang that is a factory draw though set up. They discontinued them due to reliability issues. But for a person that is often under the hood and maintaining I don't think it is such an issue. The general public doesn't want a car that needs lots of tuning but it doesn't sound like that describes you. My Mustang pulled well at the lower rpms and the turbo lag was minimal even though that engine was only rated at 135 hp vs. the stock carbed engine at 88ish. I also once had a 86 SVO that pulled really well (205 hp) at most speeds once you got the turbo spooled up. The SVO had a Garrett and I am not sure what the 79 Mustang has. The 79 Mustang set up requires a cross under pipe since the turbo and the exhaust are on opposite sides then the down pipe crosses back under then the exhaust crosses again at the cat con. Silly system, i think you could do better. The 79 turbo 2.3 has forged pistons so I am sure you will want to do that at least if you want it to live even at 6 psi. A donor car would be ideal.

i personally dont use this with bike turbos as there are many power commanders out there for motorcycles. i only use an extra injector controller when it is difficult to get a vehicle tuned. im currently using this system on my 06 chevy cobalt because there is only one tuning option for it and its mail order. i tried it and it didnt work so i made the extra injector setup.

on a draw through setup the carb would sit on top of the turbo air inlet. as the turbo spools up it will suck in more air creating more vacuum which will add more fuel. it works for a cheap budget. the bad thing is your adding fuel to the turbo compressor, boost pipes and intake. also this setup is only good for low boost as its limited. this system is also prone to problems. if i remember correctly the older 80's masserati bi turbos used a carbd turbo setup and it was the most unreliable turbo vehicle on earth.

fwiw, some older mustangs came with a draw thru carbed turbo setup for the ford 2.3 already. fabricate an adapter for your lpg carb, should make it a bolt on affair

any updates on this ??

unfortunately nothing has happened yet but it will! soon.I think im going go with the 16g turbo,its water cooled,im told its a quick spooler and are cheap and easy to get.

I may get started on this this winter.

When I get my 79 Mustang running again it will be a draw through as original but I will shortly convert it to a blow through carb system.

Carbon seals schmeals
 

as I read your old queries, had exactly the same years ago, read of same concerns, was curious, was it going to work, how would I do it, how, how, how.

The carbon seal issue arises with others and their attempts to put a throttle just afater fresh filtered air intake - that is when you need carbon seals as I have found !

After so much misleading research I propaned an existing turbo engine as : air filter > IMPCO 200 mixer > turbo > throttle body already mounted on the intake manifold >> and it is in under pressure ! I have disconnected the ecu except for its egr controls, the dizzy runs separate advance and boost retard from the main ecu , and I can monitor the diagnostics to see when knock sensor is in retard mode - not very often even when wound up to 12psi ! Knocked up 50,000miles of tar and track!

Bit scary knowing boosted combustibles in there but ensure good plugs and gap them down to about 0.2mm less than petrol - I run 0.6 to 0.8mm gaps , quality leads every 30,000 miles, cap and rotor button and double up ignition earths and battery to body earths to be sure.

I found same turbo would be either easier to zing out to redline with a larger hole in the plate the turbo sat on with exhaust from turbo OR more torquey down low with a smaller orofice.

Running 1800cc and 36mm orofice is prefered over the 40mm.

Just in here searching for BOV exhausting knowledge which seems limited everywhere in English speaking cyberspace. Mine is to exhaust downstream of the mixer into safe contained territory...not sure what it is going to do yet.

Go for it and good luck!!