block guard or pinning
 

i'm building a d16z6 for boost, should i get a block guard and have machine shop tig weld it, or should i pin the bitch. i'm going for 12-14psi ,i've got wiseco pistons 8.5:1, crower billet rods.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

What size turbo are you going to be using? I am anti-blockguard because of the nasty ---- that happened to me. I don't suggest them to anyone. Pinning I have no experience with, but I have seen people use them with good results.

To be honest with you, at only 12-14 psi I wouldn't be worried about the sleeves unless you are running a big turbo. You already have the most important parts(pistons, rods).
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Re:block guard or pinning
 

Dr.Boost... what happened to you with a blockguard?

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Massive, uncontrolable overheating which lead me to warp the cylinders causing a not so friendly seal between the block and the head. :)

Now, in the blockguards defense, it was not installed the correct way. It was not welded in and no machining was done to the cylinders afterwards.

I still would never use one. If you think about it, if your cylinder walls are pushed to the point of breaking, is this blockguard going to stop ---- from happening, and even if it did, would you be comfortable knowing the only thing saving your cylinders from snapping in half is a cheap piece of aluminum. :-\

I think the cylinder walls are very strong without any aid. Unless you are pushing 350hp, I don't see the need for it. I'll be doing some tests with a few Z6 blocks soon so I will have some proof to back this up.
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Re:block guard or pinning
 

You need somekind of support at 15+ psi.
pinning is cheaper and better go with it.
A blockguard you would need to put more money in and then drill some more holes in the blockguard etc.
I would post pin the block

Re:block guard or pinning
 

99% of the blown motors I have seen had piston or rod damage, not cylinder wall damage. The cylinder wall might have been damaged from the piston or ring giving out, but it wasn't the cause of the failure.
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Re:block guard or pinning
 

were those with aftermarket forged pistons and rods?

Re:block guard or pinning
 

If my d-series decides to take a poop on me and I end up building it I will proly go with pinning/posting the block.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

so true. if you got stock rods and pistons, they probably will go first.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

I havent used either but you can obviously see the overheating issure with the block gaurd. As fas as pinning the block, I dont know forst hand but here it goes....

Im an senior in mechanical and civil engineering and we have done computer simulations of stress caused by putting a point load on a beam with a bending load applied to it and the stress casued is like 5x that of the stress from bending...Translation....the sleaves break because of the side load from the pistons, they basically have to keep the pistions going straight up and down (That takes a force). The piston can be veiwed like a beam no with a side load on it. When you support it with a point (block pin) all that side force is now transfered over the very small area where the pin touches the sleeve====high stress===brocken sleaves. My guess if the sleeve breaks its right at the pin.

All this is fine and good but bottom line i would skip the pinning and save for sleeves if you were gonna go all out with pisyons and rods if you are gonna need sleeve support.

Sorry, deep down im a nerd

Re:block guard or pinning
 

I don't think sleeves are neccesary at 14psi. It would be overkill.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

im a firm beliver in the block filler

Beau

Re:block guard or pinning
 

were do you get the block filler and how hard is it to install compared to the blockgard or pins?
steve

Re:block guard or pinning
 

beau, perhaps a little write up on the block filler?

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Very true ... stock rod's always go first....still have to see a cilinder break before the rod's or pistons. But if you desides to get aftermarket rods etc...and got no money left that would be the way to go...it's only $36 for the posts and a few buck on somekind of metal epoxy (jb-weld).
About what you said 88b16civic it sounds good in theory, but there are 2 pins at the intake side and 1 at the exhaust side at the strees points and it has been used for years in Nascar even before i was born....so it's proven there. IMO there is no need for any of this if you're not running a lot of boost past 15 if you have build you engine. there is even this Polish guy here running 17 psi..on a small turbo it's still the same pressure but the cilinders are still holding up the only reason the rod's aren't broken yet is because he's only making about 160 hp to the wheel...any D-series can take that.The rod's brake because of the power increase and the cilinders flex because of the pressure. Even BoostedED9 ran high boost on stock cilinders the rod's broke before the cilinder...so Honda has pretty strong cilinders IMO.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

ill party to that

Re:block guard or pinning
 

I will second that. Don't know much about block filler.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

block filler is not sounding good for daily driver :-D

Re:block guard or pinning
 

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I still don't know ---- about block filler.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Just poor some cement in there ;) :P

Re:block guard or pinning
 

basically it fills the block. this is not good for anything other than straight line racing.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

yep yep, aka gay racing :-P just playing beau see ya out their next season.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Block filler is great for race only.. But you may run into cooling problems if daily driving it.

https://www.homemadeturbo.com/misc/devcon.jpg

It's simple to do... fill half the block up with Salt, then dump your epoxy/filler in. (go almost all the way to the top) then let dry.

Drill some holes for cooling, flip the block over, and let the salt come out, and walah, you now have supported sleeves. IMO, I would recommend having the pistons in, crank w/ mains all torqed and even the head on torqued in place while the epoxy/filler is drying.

Jeff

Re:block guard or pinning
 

i was thinking of runing 15 psi on my 95 accord, i was talking to this guy from Auto Link. i asked him is it enough if i just get pistons and rods for my block, he told not to get pistons ond rods unless i'm gonna sleeve my block. he told me that the after market pistons rings are made out of differnt metal than the factory pistons rigns. he said after market pistons and rods would work with out sleeving it, but the engine is not gonna last. the after market piston rings will damge the side wall in a short period of time.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Well news flash. Almost eveyr set of piston rigns ive ever seen have been made out of IRON. there are alot of coatings moly,chrome.plasma moly etc. but pretty much all rings are made from either gray,nodular or ,ductile iron.

As for cylinder wall wear.

Fuel wash and ring tension. not ring material will really have the biggest impact on the life of your cylinder walls and sleeves.

Sounds like another slip shod salesmen.

As for the debate oof Block Guard VS posting.

Nascar crews used posting not becuase thet wanted to but becuase they had to. Also those engines ran for very short amount of time. Often replacing the same engine 4-5x's in a single weekend end.

As for the Blockguard. If you get a properly done weld in and the coolant holes are where the outlets for the factory headgasket are then the overheating isues are most likely pump or terriably high EGT's.

The block guard is a much better idea when cvombined with new sleeves and proper machine work wth proper weld in.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

I don't remember which nascar race was the one that was considered "a short amount of time"
And replacing the motor 4-5 times in a weekend? There's only one race, and I don't remember any motor swaps in the pits.

It seems your very against posting. But I'd have to bet you've never actually experimented with it. :-\ We've had a ton of people here that have all had blockgaurd problems, and not too many posting complaints. "You guys didn't machine it right" wouldn't be a valid reason since, this is the real world.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Heres my idea. I have a ZC thats going im my forends car and ill post picts when done.

Basically, is a cross between pinning and ussing filler.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...BlockGuard.jpg

1) Make a negative mold out of foam of like 1/2" by 1/2" triangle.
2) Insert into water jacket and fill with filler
3) When dry break the foam away leaving a post made out of filler

Advantages
This will increase the area so there will be a lot less pressure at the point of contact as complared to pins making it less likely to cause strss points that could cause failure. You wot have the over heating problems. You wont have to drill into the block. Easy.

Concerns
When the block and sleeves heat up, the expansion may cause either a relif of clearence of an expansion will cause the sleeve to be pressed out of round.

Tell me what you guys think, its only in the planning stage

Re:block guard or pinning
 

news flash we dont need to know the metalurgic properties of rings..

do you like making everyone seem like they know nothing sean??

Re:block guard or pinning
 

was that a geo metro?

Re:block guard or pinning
 

haha, didnt feel like drawing the last cylinder, since only three steps

Re:block guard or pinning
 

wtf why did it double post see reply below

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Dont most sleeves crack like in the middle first and then work their way up. Ive heard bad things about blockgaurds but pinning is kinda new. Didnt some guys make like 400hp with just pinning the block. Some dude on ht made close to 400hp on a sohc turbo. And he had no blockguard nor pinning.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Yeah i consider 4 hrs of use fiarly short term. considering the average life span of a car engine.

yeah in the 60's they used to replace 4-5 engines in a weekend. Apearently you dont hang out in circle racing or nascar crowds. Im talking about when posting was used in the late 60's early seventies.

now after about 75 or so GM ford and Chrysler all had specific nascar block casting. and they still do. even more refined and improved however.

Block guard dont cuase overheating. Improper instilation or in sufiecent water pump pressure or volume sure as hell will.

However posting will cuase cylinder wall distortion. I dont use them in my personal engine i have no need to be becuase my honda motor has an iron block closed deck and 300 thousanths thick cylinder walls. :P

but on the motors i have either torn down rebuilt and repiared that have used post's ive seen nothing but trouble.

In all aplicable thoery posts sound great. Except they break the golden rule. you dont wont localized stress on a cylinder wall. and post's cuase localized stress.

If your worried about block guards cuasing overheating maybe ill lookinto making a webbing support that will drop in the cylinders for the d series guys.

I still thini the problems with block guard are extra themral transfer from the cylinder to the cooling system. the block guard acts as a large conductor of heat. Id also be willing to bet theres a really good chane the most guys arent running a big enough radiator. Also try and oil cooler.

Please define cooling system problem?

Re:block guard or pinning
 

4 hours at almost full throttle is alot of engine abuse IMO.
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Re:block guard or pinning
 

Well when somebody post up that after market piston rings will cuase abnormal cylinder wear. yeah i think they need a very basci and short education. I think people should learn to read and reasearch more.

to many myth mongers out there. even a few around here

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Sean, when did you invent the automoble? ::)
I study communication in college, and you didn't explain piston rings because you wanted anyone to learn. It's plain to see.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

ooh yeah. now you know what my intetions are. wonderful. Maybe some of you guys should go attend a few of classes on engine building and maching.

yeah rings dont cuase bore wear tension and lack of lubricant do.

And if you are so sold on posts ill get the picture of the engine that just came thru the machine shop and ill sho you what happens when you try to stabilize a moving cylinder with the tip of a bolt.

contrary to your belife the cylinder will move and expand upwards of about 0.001 or mroe during regular running and under heavy load can move even more.

talk to a few nascar engine builders. honda motors are un able to defy the laws of physics.

Re:block guard or pinning
 

Now that's complete bullshit. My Honda motor will never die!!! Noooooo!!! 13,000 rpm, 55 pounds of boost, 789whp, 652lb,-ft torque!!!!! :o
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Re:block guard or pinning
 

now c'mon they Doc. you know that would only happen if it was a b-series engine...